Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Those darn libs!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Those darn libs!

    Libertarians, that is.

    I get so tired of hearing that liberals are all evil godless communist-loving hippie stoners, so it's nice to find a thoughtful article on the systemic problems of fundamentalist libertarianism and how its influence has pervaded our national politics.
    In game handle: Steel Scion
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Those darn libs!

    Ugh... That was simply horrible. That guy should have a job at one of the major news networks waiting for him. He spins good...

    He brings up some good points, but it would be nice to back them up with relevant facts, too.
    Become a supporting member!
    Buy a Tactical Duck!
    Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
    TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Those darn libs!

      I tend to be a libertarian in principle, but I'm middle of the road when I think of things realistically. My big issue with the libertarian party (besides it being a politcal party which are always full of BS) is that it's almost 100% a one-note 2nd ammendment joke now. Don't get me wrong, I love my firearms, but there's more to life than a membership in the NRA.

      This article fails because it focuses on the party leaders (which the author does point out). But the most retarded followers of a particular ideology do tend to be the most unintelligent/spiteful. I mean, if I based my entire view of conservatives off the rantings of wackos like Ann Coulter, I'd have to hate them all.

      Liberals and Conservatives fail to see, on a daily basis, that they are just two sides to the same coin and that most Americans sit in the middle wondering just who in the Hell they are electing to represent them.

      A "true" libertarian government cannot function (same with democracy or communism). Real life demands people put up with issues they don't like for society to survive. Hence, whereas I despise a program along the lines of welfare and medicare, I understand that these things are neccessary in this day and age.

      Which is why I really subscribe to the politcal party of "realism." We live in the real world, and ideology will only get you so far.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Those darn libs!

        Originally posted by TheFeniX
        A "true" libertarian government cannot function (same with democracy or communism). Real life demands people put up with issues they don't like for society to survive. Hence, whereas I despise a program along the lines of welfare and medicare, I understand that these things are neccessary in this day and age.

        Which is why I really subscribe to the politcal party of "realism." We live in the real world, and ideology will only get you so far.
        Well, wouldn't extreme libertarianism simply be anarchy? Everyone can do what they want? The Libertarian Party advocates that "Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud". That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I happen to think that our illegal immigration problem is both a force and fraud problem, but the Libertarian Party thinks we should have open borders. <shrug> That's why I don't belong to the Libertarian Party...

        I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with most of the philosophies of libertarianism itself, though. The big political party has problems, but the underlying philosophy is sound. Who doesn't like freedom?

        Like you said, though, it has to be moderated by reality. We've got a good system right now. Let's not overhaul it when all it needs are a few tweaks here and there. http://www.fairtax.org/
        Become a supporting member!
        Buy a Tactical Duck!
        Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
        TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Those darn libs!

          Originally posted by TheFeniX
          This article fails because it focuses on the party leaders (which the author does point out). But the most retarded followers of a particular ideology do tend to be the most unintelligent/spiteful. I mean, if I based my entire view of conservatives off the rantings of wackos like Ann Coulter, I'd have to hate them all.

          Liberals and Conservatives fail to see, on a daily basis, that they are just two sides to the same coin and that most Americans sit in the middle wondering just who in the Hell they are electing to represent them.
          Well, the author comes right out and says that he's talking about the often extremist ideological underpinings of libertarianism, and the flaws and contradictions inherent in the "pure" application of those principles. Unfortunately, every political movement has it's mouth-breathers, and people like Ann Coulter do in fact have a wide range of devoted fans. Even if the more respectable practical proponents of the movement have less extreme things to say, these distilled principles do effect political leaders and how they sell themselves to constituents.

          I don't subscribe to the "they are all the same" philosophy of politics. While the two major parties both suffer from the same endemic problems of patronage, corruption, and hypocrisy common to most governmental hierarchies, conservativism and liberalism (at their ideological cores) offer distinctively different models of how the world should work.
          In game handle: Steel Scion
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Those darn libs!

            Originally posted by CingularDuality
            Like you said, though, it has to be moderated by reality. We've got a good system right now. Let's not overhaul it when all it needs are a few tweaks here and there. http://www.fairtax.org/
            Shifting from income tax to national sales tax? Uh, that's a bit more than a "tweak."
            In game handle: Steel Scion
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Those darn libs!

              Originally posted by Steeler
              Shifting from income tax to national sales tax? Uh, that's a bit more than a "tweak."
              Not in comparison to the "idealogical underpinnings" of getting rid of taxes, or, heck, complete anarchy...
              Become a supporting member!
              Buy a Tactical Duck!
              Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
              TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Those darn libs!

                Originally posted by Steeler
                I don't subscribe to the "they are all the same" philosophy of politics. While the two major parties both suffer from the same endemic problems of patronage, corruption, and hypocrisy common to most governmental hierarchies, conservativism and liberalism (at their ideological cores) offer distinctively different models of how the world should work.
                They are polar opposites on almost every issue they have. It's the same with Communism and Libertarianism. Hence why all four are in separate corners of a political chart, and I made the comment "two sides to the same coin."

                Take a politcal test (Hell, doesn't Cing have a link to one in his sig?) based purely on how you wish the world was. Then take it again, but account for reality: how things HAVE to be for society to function.

                I need an example: A right-wing conservative would tell you abortion is always wrong. And a left-wing liberal would tell you abortion is always the woman's choice. Which one is correct? Neither: and America learned that the hard way. You must regulate abortion (amoung other issues) to say "Well, there are times you can and times you can't."

                Politicians learn to at least look as though they lean towards the middle of the chart or they just don't last long in national politics.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Those darn libs!

                  Originally posted by CingularDuality
                  Well, wouldn't extreme libertarianism simply be anarchy? Everyone can do what they want? The Libertarian Party advocates that "Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud". That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I happen to think that our illegal immigration problem is both a force and fraud problem, but the Libertarian Party thinks we should have open borders. <shrug> That's why I don't belong to the Libertarian Party...
                  And why I don't belong to any political party. I haven't kept up on Libertarians for a while, but it basically boiled down to: I want freedom from everything, but the government has to protect me from the freedom that others have. It's weird, makes no sense, and would never work in the real world: hence why it's so popular in politics.

                  I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with most of the philosophies of libertarianism itself, though. The big political party has problems, but the underlying philosophy is sound. Who doesn't like freedom?
                  Some people don't like freedom. They would enjoy a life where they had to make no choices and could live and work like a sheep all their life. More power to them, but I want my guns.

                  Like you said, though, it has to be moderated by reality. We've got a good system right now. Let's not overhaul it when all it needs are a few tweaks here and there. http://www.fairtax.org/
                  As long as the retards here in Texas don't change the law so that I can't claim property tax come April: they can do whatever the Hell they want.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Those darn libs!

                    I was confused by your metaphor FeniX. Usually "two sides of the same coin" implies that they are fundamentally similar, but opposed to each other just because they are on opposing sides.

                    Also, IMO, liberal is not the opposite of conservative, nor vice versa. They are just different. People have assigned them banners in the "culture war" under which we are supposedly fighting.

                    Originally posted by TheFeniX
                    I need an example: A right-wing conservative would tell you abortion is always wrong. And a left-wing liberal would tell you abortion is always the woman's choice. Which one is correct? Neither: and America learned that the hard way. You must regulate abortion (amoung other issues) to say "Well, there are times you can and times you can't."
                    Those two choices are not polar opposites. It is possible to believe that abortion is always wrong, but that it is also ultimately always a woman's choice. I think that actually is the standard conservative/libertarian position, isn't it?

                    By the way, I do actually agree with you that all ideology must be tempered by pragmatism, otherwise you are doomed to make life harder both for yourself and everyone else.
                    In game handle: Steel Scion
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Those darn libs!

                      Originally posted by Steeler
                      Also, IMO, liberal is not the opposite of conservative, nor vice versa. They are just different. People have assigned them banners in the "culture war" under which we are supposedly fighting.
                      You can try to relabel them if you want to, but they're very definitely polar opposites. Their idealogies can very easily be charted and is simply done so in the link in my sig.


                      Those two choices are not polar opposites. It is possible to believe that abortion is always wrong, but that it is also ultimately always a woman's choice. I think that actually is the standard conservative/libertarian position, isn't it?
                      That might be a libertarian viewpoint, but definitely not a conservative one...
                      Become a supporting member!
                      Buy a Tactical Duck!
                      Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
                      TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Those darn libs!

                        Originally posted by Steeler
                        I was confused by your metaphor FeniX. Usually "two sides of the same coin" implies that they are fundamentally similar, but opposed to each other just because they are on opposing sides.
                        People confuse a lot of the random crap that comes from my IP address. Can't really blame them.

                        Also, IMO, liberal is not the opposite of conservative, nor vice versa. They are just different. People have assigned them banners in the "culture war" under which we are supposedly fighting.
                        The ideologies have been replaced by the "culture war" you speak of. Just like the libertarian ideology has been hijacked by 2nd ammendment nuts. The values once held separate between conservatism/republican and liberal/democrat are now one and the same. The distiction has evolved. So, unless we're going back through the history books, you could interchange conservative for republican and liberal for democrat without much fuss.

                        Those two choices are not polar opposites. It is possible to believe that abortion is always wrong, but that it is also ultimately always a woman's choice.
                        Then your particular belief on that instance is "middle of the road," not conservative or liberal.

                        I think that actually is the standard conservative/libertarian position, isn't it?
                        No. Libertarians take all of the "we hate big government" from conservatism and the "we love freedom" from liberalism. Libertarians would side with liberals on that one.

                        I should also add: abortion might have been a bad example as that particular issue has been hijacked by the Christian-conservative minority. But they influence conservative/republican politics so much, you could refer to my comments above.

                        By the way, I do actually agree with you that all ideology must be tempered by pragmatism, otherwise you are doomed to make life harder both for yourself and everyone else.
                        Agreed, but I take mine a step further to say that ideology can't stand on it's own in the real world.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Those darn libs!

                          Originally posted by TheFeniX
                          Then your particular belief on that instance is "middle of the road," not conservative or liberal.
                          I was just trying to illustrate that you could believe wholeheartedly in both positions - both wrong - at the same time. As in, "What you're doing is morally reprehensible but I have no right to stop you." My own actual views are a little different.
                          In game handle: Steel Scion
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Those darn libs!

                            Originally posted by Steeler
                            I was just trying to illustrate that you could believe wholeheartedly in both positions - both wrong - at the same time. As in, "What you're doing is morally reprehensible but I have no right to stop you." My own actual views are a little different.
                            Ok, I see. Basically, I forgot to add in the second part to each. What I had originally meant to say was:

                            Conservative ideology: "Abortion is morally wrong and should be illegal at all times."
                            Liberal ideology: "Aboration is not amoral and should be legal no matter what."

                            I did a poor job wording that, and it's also not the best example for conservative vs liberalism.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Those darn libs!

                              Originally posted by Steeler
                              I get so tired of hearing that liberals are all evil godless communist-loving hippie stoners
                              Heh, so do I. Now I'm gonna go find me a puppy to eat as part of my Satan-worshiping, before inhaling/eating/snorting/sniffing a variety of substances which I grow in my backyard. Peace out!

                              [conduct][volun][drill][sg-c1][tpf-c1]
                              |TG-2nd|munchkin
                              Nec aspera terrent.

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X