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  • Scenes from the Gaza Strip

    With Israel out of the way, here at least, it's hard to see how long the Palestinians can blame these events on anyone but themselves.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../ixportal.html

  • #2
    Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

    There will always be the murderous and the self interested in any lot. These folks can have a profound effect in an already chaotic environment.

    I think it's naive to assume that things will go from being in a constant state of war to an "Islamic Miami Beach" overnight. Give them some time to sort their own problems out.

    [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
    [ma-c2][taw-c1]

    Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
    Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

    Treat others as you would have them treat you

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    • #3
      Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

      Yeah whatever. How's 58 years?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

        Your first post seemed to imply that you were acknowledging that Israel had played a role in the violence until its withdrawal, or at the very least allowing the premise for the sake of argument. It hasn't been fifty eight years since Sharon had Israel pull out of Gaza.

        Wasn't Israel created 58 years ago? I don't see how the two events are connected...

        [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
        [ma-c2][taw-c1]

        Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
        Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

        Treat others as you would have them treat you

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

          no my first post implied that people have been blaming Israel for the Palestinians' behavior for a long time. That excuse is disappearing.

          You don't see how the creation of Israel relates to the Palestinians? OK, then pick an event that you think signifies that the Palestinians are officially on their own in terms of being held accountable for their fortunes and future. Any event will do. Something that says "from this point, you need to face facts and make the best of your world."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

            To be fair, I said I didn't see how the two events (Israel be created and Israel withdrawing from the Gaza Strip) are related. And I would agree that the Palestinians are, collectively, now needing to step up to the plate and do good things with their recent advancements. I have no doubt in my mind that many Palestinians are trying to do just that.

            We would also do well to bear in mind that decisions aren't made in a vaccuum; people do the things they do for reasons that are largely derived from their environment. If that environment is violent, then a different course of action will be taken than if it is calm. I think things will calm down over time, but we can't expect that calming to happen overnight.

            [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
            [ma-c2][taw-c1]

            Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
            Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

            Treat others as you would have them treat you

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

              We would also do well to bear in mind that decisions aren't made in a vaccuum; people do the things they do for reasons that are largely derived from their environment. If that environment is violent, then a different course of action will be taken than if it is calm. I think things will calm down over time, but we can't expect that calming to happen overnight.
              Interesting how well that argument flows when used to defend Palestinians killing each other and how quickly the same argument is rejected when used to explain security in Iraq.

              I reject the argument that these Palestinians who are shooting each other when they aren't blowing up Israeli schoolchildren and shoppers just can't help themselves. Other people have lived through far worse situations than they without behaving as shamefully. Hell, the French have done it twice.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                The clan battles described in the article follow a pattern that has existed for thousands of years in the Middle East. Those familial clans have rarely united and embraced a form of nationalism unless they shared some kind of external common threat. When the threat was eliminated, the clans fell back into their pattern of fighting one another. I see the same thing going on in Gaza today; the common threat of Israel has been removed, so the clan rivalries are heating up again.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                  I am a Sergent in the Israeli Army, an American/Israeli citizen.
                  Please understand one thing very important in the Israeli/Arab "conflict".
                  The "Palestinians", and I use that term loosely since most of the Arabs in Israel are from Jordan, are used by there own people as pawns against the Jewish state. Ask yourself why there is still even 1 refugee camp in their territories? Are not the Arab nations the wealthiest in the world? Why don't their "brother" Arabs help them? Is it truly up to Israel to save their enemies from poverty and anarchy? The Palestinian Arabs are an unruly, unorganized, lawless group of clans that have a single, unified goal..The total destruction of the Jewish state of Israel. their own "great" leader, Arafat, stole BILLIONS from his own people. SHAME!!

                  We, the Israeli's, offered them a state of their own during the Oslo debacle, they refused.
                  Everyone should stop trying to be politically correct and just realize that the Muslim countries are not our friends. They do not respect others's religious beliefs or political systems, and they thrive on repression and self induced ignorance. They do not properly educate their people and they are typically repressive regimes that abuse their power in the most despicible of ways. When Jordan ruled the Jewish Holy sites in Jerusalem, pre-1967, JEWS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PRAY AT THOSE SITES. but, now when Israel controls the whole of Jerusalem, post 1967, we give the Muslims not only the right to pray at their mosque, but we give them civil control over their sites!! So, what do they do at least once a year? They throw rocks down on the Jewish worshippers below. Then, when we respond to defend ourselves, they cry to the world that Israel is the aggressor and they are just poor innocent victims. What foolishness!

                  YES, every nation has bad people. NO, not every Muslim is a bad person. Just consider this: After Sept. 11 2001, the Palestinians were dancing in the streets, handing out sweets to their neighbors in celebration while the Israeli's cried with the USA. Two different responses to a horrible attack on America.
                  Also, it has nothing, zero, nada to do with "occupied" land. The killing of Jews in Israel has been going on since the beginning of the 1900's.(before the state of Israel existed) Including the Riots all over Israel in the 1920's and 30's that saw the murder and mutilation of hundreds of Jews. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a personal friend and advisor to Hitler..Asking Hitler to implement his final solution in the land of Palestine as well.
                  Every time you go to the airport and must pass thru a metal detector or be searched by security you should curse the arab nations that support terror. You know why you must be subject to this extensive security? Is it because of Israeli hijackers? American Hijackers? NOPE. The Palestine Liberation Org. were the masters of hijacking airplanes and causing terror all over the world. It was a group tied to Yasser Arafat that masterminded the Munich olympics massacre, hijacked the cruise ship Achilli Lauro. The list goes on and on.

                  The Israeli's are far from perfect, but they offer so much good to the world of science, technology, art, literature etc.. They have many nobel prize winners in the sciences and they are the only Democracy in the entire middle east. Why can't the Arab nations live and let live? Why does little tiny Israel, that isnt even the size of Rhode Island, have to justify it's existance every single day??

                  The Palestinian Arabs prove, every day, that they are capable of only two things. Anarchy and Terror. It is a sad thing but a fact nonetheless.
                  I know that you will think that my opinion is biased since I am in the IDF and I am Israeli/American. BUT, I am a mature, rational thinker that understands that when he sees, and collects, Jewish body parts from an Arab suicide bombing in a cafe/bus/school/pizza shop that a Palestinian arab decided to attack, that something is very wrong in the Muslim world that if not corrected, soon, will surely spread fear and chaos the world over.
                  Ben




                  All I ask for is communication

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                    STOP MAKING EXCUSES for the evil people in the world. Accept the fact that there is evil, people can do evil things, and that evil must be fought in every way possible.




                    All I ask for is communication

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                      Easy, Ben! I was pointing out what those clans have been up to. I wasn't excusing it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                        Originally posted by Strag
                        Easy, Ben! I was pointing out what those clans have been up to. I wasn't excusing it.

                        I wasnt attacking you. It was a general satement to anyone who might read this thread. There is a quote from Jewish sages long ago:
                        If you are compassionate to the cruel, soon you will be cruel to the compassionate.
                        This world we live in is so backwards. People are blind to reality. Their is no moral equivilance between terrorists and those that try to kill terrorists




                        All I ask for is communication

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                          I completely agree with you ben. Over in england, i find news reports and people being strangly biased against Isreal. I think this may be down to ignorance of the situation.
                          I mean, if it really was about the occupied land then the palestinians and muslims should be blaming the heads of states like Jordan, Egypt and Syria for going to war with Irael. Israel has every right to that land after being attacked and should infact have more - basicly the sinai peninsula aswell. But, as ben said, it has nothing to do with occupied land.
                          |TG-4th|MalyJay
                          [GMT] [EST+5]

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                          • #14
                            Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                            Originally posted by leejo
                            Interesting how well that argument flows when used to defend Palestinians killing each other and how quickly the same argument is rejected when used to explain security in Iraq.

                            I reject the argument that these Palestinians who are shooting each other when they aren't blowing up Israeli schoolchildren and shoppers just can't help themselves. Other people have lived through far worse situations than they without behaving as shamefully. Hell, the French have done it twice.
                            I don't believe I've made that claim that the above argument either applies or fails to apply to Iraq. I think you are arguing against someone else with that point.

                            I also reject that those folks doing the shooting and bombing etcetera, just can't help themselves. I didn't say or imply that they can't either. I said that the murderous and self-interested are to be found in any group, and that things will calm down as time goes on.

                            Generally related to this topic, I believe two things:
                            1) Things will never be perfect.
                            2) Things could be better, and we humans have the power to make those better things reality.

                            Is that so different from what anyone else believes?

                            [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
                            [ma-c2][taw-c1]

                            Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
                            Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

                            Treat others as you would have them treat you

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Scenes from the Gaza Strip

                              Ben's statement is supported and endorsed by Leonidas. I really could not have said it better, let alone with your experience. +rep for such a awesome post.
                              War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature, who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill--

                              "O xein angellein lakedaimoniois hoti tede keimetha tois keinon rhemasi peithomenoi"- Monument, Thermopylae

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