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USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

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  • RandomGuy
    started a topic USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by Kent Brockman
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Democracy does not work
    ---

  • Wulfyn
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Without going into the details the opinion of my family and many co-workers is that voting rights should be obtained through land ownership or military service.
    Not to backtrack too much, but voting rights in the UK used to be done by land ownership. Each borough would have an MP to represent it, and only land owners of that borough would be able to vote in that borough's election. Of course some boroughs only had 1 land owner (these were called rotten boroughs), and was thus an easy way to buy yourself a seat in parliament.

    Any Blackadder fans might like to watch the episode in B.A. III where he goes up for election (this series was created with great historical detail).

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    I'd say anything that interferes with an individual's non-violent non-coercive actions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diceman
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Ok, so what's bad control?

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    I don't know that anyone sees self defense as "good", just necessary.

    The only "good" control is that needed to neutralize "bad" control.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diceman
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Ok, so would you agree that there are good types of control and bad types of control?

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by Diceman
    Wait....doesn't that idea (and the system that implements it) seek to control other people? Should a person who conceived of and/or supported that idea, either philosophically or materially, be penalized?
    No more so than shooting someone who's trying to murder you is an act of violence. Controlling a controller is an act of self defense. It's what "checks and balances" are for.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diceman
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by ScratchMonkey
    Any qualifying system for voters should penalize busybodies who just want to control their neighbors, and reward those who want to leave others alone. That should provide a natural check on would-be "benevolent" dictators.
    Wait....doesn't that idea (and the system that implements it) seek to control other people? Should a person who conceived of and/or supported that idea, either philosophically or materially, be penalized?

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Any qualifying system for voters should penalize busybodies who just want to control their neighbors, and reward those who want to leave others alone. That should provide a natural check on would-be "benevolent" dictators.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diceman
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    In a poli sci class I took some years ago, we talked about this idea; require that voters have some kind of test to ensure that they have some basic understanding of the issues or parties, or the structure of government (at the very least) before going to the polls.

    One major problem is how to construct these tests? How do you decide which knowledge and information is relevant to political discourse? Even the most basic of information is politicized - look at the scuffles going on in Kansas and other places over the content of science texts - imagine how tendencious the opposing sides would become if real power rested on the line.

    Military service is another idea, and not as easy to politicize as a test or class, but it creates an inequality between citizens; those who have served would have more rights than those who haven't. Kind of goes against the notion that all men are created equal, doesn't it?

    I do like the idea that a leader must have been in war before s/he can send the troops off to war, but it doesn't seem very practical either.

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by CingularDuality
    I grapple with this concept in my head all the time. On the one hand, it makes sense. On the other, it goes against so many things that I've been taught to believe...
    You mean about immigration, or voting?

    The immigration idea kinda conflicts with the idea that there should be no "voting tests" such as those attempted after the Civil War. But I think that more reveals an issue with immigration tests. Dumb natural-borns shouldn't have more rights than smart people born on the "wrong" side of an imaginary line.

    Leave a comment:


  • CingularDuality
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by ScratchMonkey
    Heinlein argued for that in Starship Troopers.

    I don't think you should get automatic citizenship just by being born here. You should have to pass the same tests and wait in the same queues that immigrants suffer to be naturalized. That should eliminate the "ignorant American" syndrome, and should also normalize immigration policy so that it's fair to all participants.
    I grapple with this concept in my head all the time. On the one hand, it makes sense. On the other, it goes against so many things that I've been taught to believe...

    Leave a comment:


  • ScratchMonkey
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Originally posted by Shiner
    Without going into the details the opinion of my family and many co-workers is that voting rights should be obtained through land ownership or military service.
    Heinlein argued for that in Starship Troopers.

    I don't think you should get automatic citizenship just by being born here. You should have to pass the same tests and wait in the same queues that immigrants suffer to be naturalized. That should eliminate the "ignorant American" syndrome, and should also normalize immigration policy so that it's fair to all participants.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shiner
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    Without going into the details the opinion of my family and many co-workers is that voting rights should be obtained through land ownership or military service.

    Leave a comment:


  • RGM-79N_GM_CUstom
    replied
    Re: USA - Democracy or Republic, or Both?

    I think this has to be said.

    Vote Custom in '08.

    Leave a comment:

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