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  • Iraq

    A bunch of other threads keep tying in to various elements of the situation in Iraq. I think we should be discussing less of the lead up (like WMD's) and more of the here and now. Let's face it, this will go beyond Bush, beyond the neocons and naysayers, beyond the war on terror. This is history being shaped. The last 72 hours in Iraq have been extremely ugly, and I'm more concerned now than I ever was for the people in that region.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...AQ.xml&src=cms

  • #2
    Re: Iraq

    Yeah, tensions between the Sunnis and Shias are at probably an all-time high since Saddam's removal. I heard on radio reports that even Al-Sistani, the Shi'ite cleric highest up the food chain, has been calling for peace and they are just getting more pissed off.

    It's really at a boiling point. I hope things can work themselves out peacefully. If civil war breaks out, well....so much for Democracy and the pining of radical Islam.

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    • #3
      Re: Iraq

      I also am very concerned about all the recent developments. I just can't my head around some of it.



      A good man stands up for himself. A great man stands up for others.

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      • #4
        Re: Iraq

        The Sunnis and shias have been fighting one another since the direct lineage of Mohammad first came under scrutiny. They were fighting then and they are fighting now.
        Josh -
        Some men will always be animals, while others ... they will be Men.

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        • #5
          Re: Iraq

          To be honest. I had a very large reply made up. But I decided against it because my views on the situation may not be what everyone else is thinking.

          So, I'll leave it at.

          Yes, the situation looks bad. And I can forsee nothing but more hard times for that region for long after we leave. Everything the United States has done will be for nothing in the end.

          [volun][drill]
          I'm cannon fodder.

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          • #6
            Re: Iraq

            Originally posted by ChIck3nL3gz
            Everything the United States has done will be for nothing in the end.
            Damn near the sentiment I have. I believe that however stable we make it seem, as soon as we step out of Iraq the government there will be toppled and civil war will ensue. We're trying hard, but we just don't understand the culture of the region well enough to enforce our way of life.

            If I remember to, I'll post more in the morning about a decent theory behind the main difference between the US and many other mid-east and African countries.
            [squadl]
            "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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            • #7
              Re: Iraq

              I think that no matter what we do there is going to be a civil war between the Sunnis and the Shias. I just hope that when it breaks out full swing our men and woman are not there caught in the middle.

              Unfortunately, I don't think peace is realistic in Iraq until one of the two sides dominates the other again. It's sad that we can't resolve this like decent human beings with some sort of balanced compromise, but there's just too much hatred built up. It goes back so far that practically everyone has a loved one that was killed by the other side, so there's not much hope in a new generation being brought up not hating the other group.

              However, if the Israelis and the Palestenians can eventually come to terms with one another, then I think that will send a message to the entire world, and perhaps the Sunnis & Shias will try a little harder to coexist.
              |TG|Delta_Swift

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              • #8
                Re: Iraq

                Originally posted by SmokingTarpan
                Damn near the sentiment I have. I believe that however stable we make it seem, as soon as we step out of Iraq the government there will be toppled and civil war will ensue. We're trying hard, but we just don't understand the culture of the region well enough to enforce our way of life.

                If I remember to, I'll post more in the morning about a decent theory behind the main difference between the US and many other mid-east and African countries.
                The truly sad part is that this is exactly what happened in S. Vietnam in 1963 that sparked what we now know as the Vietnam War. Troops and political advisors were removed from the region, and within weeks a coup had overthrown the democratic leader. See the signs, Mr. Bush. Now is the true test for the you and the military in Iraq. I, honestly, was against the invasion's initiation, but am FAR more opposed to its withdrawl at this stage.

                There are people in Iraq that have no turning back. We can't let them down.


                "Who put the fun in dysfunctional? I." - Aesop Rock

                "Cuz you can choose to say 'Good morning, God! =)' or 'Good God, morning! =(" - Blackalicious

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                • #9
                  Re: Iraq

                  Originally posted by aesop rock
                  I, honestly, was against the invasion's initiation, but am FAR more opposed to its withdrawl at this stage.

                  There are people in Iraq that have no turning back. We can't let them down.
                  Yeah, I'm really in the same boat. What happens if we stay is uncertain, but what happens if we leave is unthinkable.

                  I really have a very basic understanding of Islam, but it seems like the Shi'ites pretty much stand alone. I don't know exactly what the Wahabists in Saudi Arabia think of the Sunnis, but they HATE Shi'ites and I could see them supporting the Sunnis and the bloodshed eventually spilling over into Saudi Arabia. Not to mention, a civil war between Sunnis and Shi'ites could cause the Kurds in Northern Iraq to secede and create their own country, which in turn could destabilize Kurdish populations in Turkey and Iran as well.

                  Man, those al Qaeda fellows sure know what buttons to push...and they're not going away anytime soon.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Iraq

                    Originally posted by aesop rock
                    The truly sad part is that this is exactly what happened in S. Vietnam in 1963 that sparked what we now know as the Vietnam War. Troops and political advisors were removed from the region, and within weeks a coup had overthrown the democratic leader.
                    Your history is a bit off.

                    The Vietnam War began in 1957, not 1963. Then again, 1957 marks only the beginning of the civil war; if one really wants to understand the "Vietnam War" as it's known by Americans, one should go back to the Vietnamese struggle for independance from the French from 1946-1954. The Vietnamese today do not distinguish between what we call the "First Indo-China War" and the "Vietnam War." They consider them one war.

                    I can only assume the democratic leader you refer to is Diem, who was not democratic and was removed from power in 1963. . .with the approval of the US. "Upon hearing that a coup d'etat was being designed by ARVN Generals led by General Dương Văn Minh, the United States gave secret assurances to the generals that the U.S. would not interfere."link

                    Oh, and Diem wasn't democratically elected. "When the referendum was held, Diệm's troops guarded the polls and those who attempted to vote for the Emperor were assaulted." (same link)
                    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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                    • #11
                      Re: Iraq

                      Things have indeed gotten ugly over there. On the bright side, I think that foreign terrorists are becoming less and less welcome in Iraq.

                      And I wouldn't worry about what happens in Iraq once the US pulls out. I don't think we'll ever completely pull out of Iraq. As I've said before, I think we'll always have some major military bases there, just like we have in Japan, Germany and Italy.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Iraq

                        and korea

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                        • #13
                          Re: Iraq

                          Originally posted by Cing
                          I don't think we'll ever completely pull out of Iraq. As I've said before, I think we'll always have some major military bases there, just like we have in Japan, Germany and Italy.
                          I could not agree more.



                          A good man stands up for himself. A great man stands up for others.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Iraq

                            Interesting article about the situation in Iraq: http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson...0602240629.asp

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                            • #15
                              Re: Iraq

                              Originally posted by NRO
                              The Iraqi military goes out now on about half the American patrols, as well as on thousands of their own. It is not the Fallujah brigade of early 2004 — rather, it is developing into the best trained and disciplined armed force in the Middle East.
                              Originally posted by CNN
                              The only Iraqi battalion capable of fighting without U.S. support has been downgraded to a level requiring them to fight with American troops backing them up, the Pentagon said Friday.
                              --
                              Originally posted by NRO
                              While progress in reestablishing the infrastructure necessary for increased electricity and oil production seems dismal, in fact, much has been finished that awaits only the completion of pipelines and transmission lines — the components most vulnerable to sabotage.
                              Mr. Hanson clearly has no understanding of civil engineering. This is like saying, well, we have a heart, now all we need is a circulatory and lymphatic system. We're practically done!
                              Transmission IS the hard part. Power lines and pipelines ARE infrastructure. We've had generators and turbines and pumps sitting in storage or working at minimal capacity in Iraq since late 2003, but due to sabotage, security, kickback, and incompetence, the rest of the network has not yet been completed.
                              In game handle: Steel Scion
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