Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Belgian prisons and Gitmo

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Belgian prisons and Gitmo

    Belgian officials admit that the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo is actually better than in their own prisons. How could that be? I thought we were torturing them!?! The people in Belgian prisons are BELGIAN. So they must have no regard at all for their own citizens!

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1692490
    or
    http://smh.com.au/news/world/guantan...493645389.html

    Lucky Shot
    Last edited by Lucky Shot; 03-07-2006, 11:43 AM. Reason: changed the Header

  • #2
    Re: Dutch and Gitmo

    Dutch?
    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Dutch and Gitmo

      But Alain Grignard, deputy head of Brussels' federal police anti-terrorism unit, said that holding people for many years without telling them what would happen to them is in itself "mental torture."
      - Which is the other problem.
      In game handle: Steel Scion
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Dutch and Gitmo

        Originally posted by xTYBALTx
        Dutch?
        Yea, pardon my ignorance as I lump the Netherlands and Belgium into one general area. Any way to change the header?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Dutch and Gitmo

          I hope Alain Grignard regrets having said that Guantanamo is better than Belgian prisons. I'm sure anyone who receives a guided tour (which is the only type of tour allowed - no access to talk to inmates, no unescorted access, many areas off-limits) would find that the medical facilities, food, and most publicized allowance of Muslim prayer elements are quite accomodating. This much is already known, and overly publicised. The problems are with what is unknown - including the names of prisoners, the reasons why they are held, their access to their families, and what happens behind closed doors.

          In case you missed earlier posts of mine in various other threads, I will repeat my main issues with Guantanamo:

          - Widespread allegations of mistreatment and abuse of prisoners, especially during interrogations
          UN report: http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/....2006.120_.pdf
          Recent book release: http://www.forbes.com/business/manuf...ap2574383.html

          - Suspension of Habeas Corpus (Governments must state why they are holding someone prisoner) and the timing and creation of the 2005 "Detainee Treatment Act"
          http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/20...cutive-and.php

          - Documentation of changed U.S. policy with regard to torture and interrogation technique, specifically aimed at Guantanmo
          http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten.../060227fa_fact

          - Studies by the National Journal and Seton Hall indicating that more than half of the prisoners at Guantanamo are not alleged to have committed terrorist acts against the US or its allies or are even members of any terrorist organizations at all. Currently only 10 inmates have had charges placed against them and have trials scheduled.
          http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060208/D8FKLJN8A.html

          - Recently released transcripts (forced out of the Department of Defense by Federal court order), reveal some names of prisoners, and show how many are being held only on suspicions - no evidence, and no charges.
          http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5248091

          Meanwhile conservative media outlets continue to cloud the issue by spewing opinion and outright falsehoods, including harping on how great the food is there:
          http://mediamatters.org/items/200603060002

          What the prisoners are eating (or actually refusing to eat and instead having it force-fed through their nose, see the UN report referenced above) is not the issue. The issue, and the question I ask of it, is whether or not it should be acceptable for any country to seize foreign citizens from multiple other countries (not just theaters of war), transport them to a prison, hold them without releasing their name to the public, hold them without making charges known to the individuals or the public, and keep them there indefinitely. I personally don't think this is acceptable for any country or organization to do, and I also believe that elements of the behavior are illegal under International and U.S. law.

          I do believe we can come up with a MUCH better way of seizing and interrogating terrorism suspects, and am ashamed at how poorly my government has handled this entire issue.
          Last edited by Mosely; 03-07-2006, 08:06 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

            +rep mos. To make a comparison u must know the 2 objects(in this case, institutions) you are going to compare, here we dont know what really happens in Guantamo so a comparison can not bee made.
            here are some documents from HRW and Amnesty Int
            http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa_gitmo
            http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-usa/reports

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dutch and Gitmo

              Originally posted by AMosely
              I hope Alain Grignard regrets having said that Guantanamo is better than Belgian prisons. I'm sure anyone who receives a guided tour (which is the only type of tour allowed - no access to talk to inmates, no unescorted access, many areas off-limits) would find that the medical facilities, food, and most publicized allowance of Muslim prayer elements are quite accomodating. This much is already known, and overly publicised. The problems are with what is unknown - including the names of prisoners, the reasons why they are held, their access to their families, and what happens behind closed doors.

              In case you missed earlier posts of mine in various other threads, I will repeat my main issues with Guantanamo:

              - Widespread allegations of mistreatment and abuse of prisoners, especially during interrogations
              UN report: http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/....2006.120_.pdf
              Recent book release: http://www.forbes.com/business/manuf...ap2574383.html
              The point stands though that Belgium, a nation in good standing, treats its prisoners worse than the US treats people it considers terrorists. This is from an expert from Europe's biggest security organization (OSCE). I Implore that Belgium and the rest of Europe allow their prisoners the right to practice their religion, increase the quality of food, access to clothing and medical care to the same level of Guantanamo Bay.

              "I know no Belgian prison where each inmate receives its Muslim kit," Grignard said.
              I don't have an issue with not knowing the names of the prisoners, not allowing them to see their families, and don't care to know the daily ins and outs of Guantanamo. I only left the remainder up there as there is a broken link on one of your hyperlinks.

              Oddly enough, some prisoners do not want to be released back to their homelands.

              http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/...ap2574368.html

              Lucky Shot

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dutch and Gitmo

                Originally posted by Lucky Shot
                there is a broken link on one of your hyperlinks.
                Fixed it - thanks for checking.

                Originally posted by LuckyShot
                Oddly enough, some prisoners do not want to be released back to their homelands.
                I saw this too - has it occured to anyone else that they might be saying this just to be let out? Just a thought.

                I wonder if any of the detainees who said these things also participated in the hunger strike and were subsequently force-fed through the nose with progressively larger tubes until they finally gave up and ate the food.

                I'm sure some of the detainees are terrorists. I'm also sure some of them aren't. You know what, though? The ones that aren't (more than 50% according to studies) are going to really hate us now, and so are their families, friends and neighbors.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dutch and Gitmo

                  Originally posted by AMosely

                  I saw this too - has it occured to anyone else that they might be saying this just to be let out? Just a thought.

                  I'm sure some of the detainees are terrorists. I'm also sure some of them aren't. You know what, though? The ones that aren't (more than 50% according to studies) are going to really hate us now, and so are their families, friends and neighbors.
                  No doubt we have made enemies of those held for the last couple years. That's a very scary point and part of the reason why I would hate to see these people go. The benefit to not knowing the prisoners names is that it is not entirely likely that their family would have been rounded up already.

                  I think the ones who don't want to go back are afraid of having themselves and their families rounded up and tortured by those who feel that the prisoners snitched on terrorists. Others, probably recognize that Syria may not be a fun place to live and would rather live elsewhere.

                  Lucky Shot

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                    Some of them don't want to be released back to their countries of origin because they'd be promptly arrested.
                    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                      Here are some transcripts from some of the Tribunals. Very interesting stuff:

                      http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/...srt/index.html

                      Here's a quote from Set 3 Page 60:

                      "Prisoners here are in paradise. American people are very good. Really. They give us three meals, juice, fruit and everything! My God! Here they [i.e. the Arab detainees] bother me everyday, every time. Now about 30 months to this day, they bother me. They call me a hypocrite. They call me a spy. You have to say, 'thank God!' I thank you for America! If you are in a Taliban prison, they do not treat you well. Here we are in paradise. It is 100% paradise. Yes, really. Thank you!"

                      And another from set 2 page 55:

                      "I'm very happy with the Americans. I don't blame the Americans for capturing me. I blame someone who reported me; I got captured because of him."
                      New to TG?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                        The US Constitution recognizes rights, it does not create them. Rights don't stop at borders. That we fail to honor them in another country is shameful to our founding document and those who died bringing it into being.
                        Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                        snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                        Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                          The US Constitution is a contract between the federal government and the states. It neither recognizes nor creates rights. It's a deal between the entities involved and does not extend beyond those entities.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                            Originally posted by leejo
                            The US Constitution is a contract between the federal government and the states. It neither recognizes nor creates rights. It's a deal between the entities involved and does not extend beyond those entities.
                            Generally I agree that the specific rights granted us by our constitution are in fact generally United States Citizens rights, not rights of all people. However, there certainly are a set of rights that the founding fathers attributed to all men:

                            "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

                            unalienable, to my understanding, means that they are intrinsic and not dependant on who is governing them at the moment.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Belgian prisons and Gitmo

                              Originally posted by Addict
                              Generally I agree that the specific rights granted us by our constitution are in fact generally United States Citizens rights, not rights of all people. However, there certainly are a set of rights that the founding fathers attributed to all men:

                              "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

                              unalienable, to my understanding, means that they are intrinsic and not dependant on who is governing them at the moment.
                              Yes, but society recognizes that there are situations in which people forfeit their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... Murderers are executed (or imprisoned for life) lawfully in our country. And terrorists are detained for the duration of the war. <shrug>
                              Become a supporting member!
                              Buy a Tactical Duck!
                              Take the world's smallest political quiz! "I was touched by His Noodly Appendage."
                              TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran:

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X