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  • Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

    California has reinstated its exit exams, so that means that thousands of senoirs that had hoped to graduate wont be able to. So whos fault is it, the students or the school systems. And if its the schools while why should they be punished, but if its the students what is gonna be done to make sure it doesnt happen anymore.

    I lived in ohio for my highschool state exams, but the test givers made one mistake, they told us the exams ment nothing, they where just given to see if the schools where doing their job and it had no effect on our graduation. About half, including me, left the test before it started.

    Whats the point in having exiting exams, especially if its the schools fault. Kind of seems like an endless cycle.
    that sounds like a good idea trooper.
    -Vulcan

  • #2
    Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

    Before you start looking at "fault", try looking at what the test means, and what a high school diploma means.

    The basic concept of the exit exam is not to punish anyone, but to assign a value to a high school diploma--to say to employers and colleges, someone holding a California high school diploma will, at the least, know a little bit of math and a little bit of English. We're not even talking about very much--we're talking 8th grade algebra and 10th grade English.

    Now, say you take that away--at current stats, you can say that a person holding a high school diploma has about a 10% chance of NOT meeting basic competency standards in math and english. What does that do to the value of a diploma? How impressed is that employer going to be when you write on your resume, "CA High School Diploma"? And just as importantly, to those 10% who CANT speak English or do algebra, how are you helping them by handing them a diploma anyway and telling them, "Congratulations! You have completed your education and have no need to learn anything more!"

    Having an exit exam punishes no one. Removing the exit exam, on the other hand, punishes EVERYONE who gets a diploma in the state of California.

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    • #3
      Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

      Yes! The value is not just to the employer, but also to all the people who worked hard to demonstrate competency. Giving them to everybody makes them worthless to those who did the work.

      An alternative solution is to completely eliminate the diploma, and leave employers to depend on private certification of skills. Hopeful potential employees would need to go get certified by an agency trusted by their prospective employer. (We already see this system at work in the computer industry, with various industry certifications. You don't have to be a HS graduate to get one, AFAIK. But you need to know the material well enough to pass the test.)
      Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

      snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

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      • #4
        Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

        I just recently created a MySpace page, and have been browsing the pages of people from my high school graduating class... I'm disgusted by the number of people that have bachelor's and master's degrees that aren't able to spell simple words or that don't care to correct typos.

        I've got only a high school diploma, and it's worth next to nothing professionally. Frankly, I don't see how a college degree is worth anything, either, after working with so many dumb college grads...

        It would be nice if exams ensured a minimum amount of education.

        ScratchMonkey, I like your idea, too. I don't care if my auto mechanic can spell. I don't care if my IT guy can spell. I don't care if my yoga instructor can spell. I don't even really care if my dentist can spell. If they are content to remain "grunts" for their entire career, that's fine. But once these people start moving up into management positions, their skill set needs to include a basic education.
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        • #5
          Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

          I'd like to see American high school seniors take the college entrance exams in Taiwan/China/India.

          Although our primary education system isn't that great, I place most of the blame on American culture. We don't seem to value education as much as we should. This attitude manifests itself in the current generation which can point out the finer points of useless pop culture trivia, but is ridiculously ignorant when it comes to knowledge of real value. Therefore, it's mainly the students' fault, but our poor education system cannot be absolved of blame.

          IMO there should be some sort of competency test(s) in order for a citizen/representative to vote. Democracy would likely work much better if the voters are educated and able to think for themselves instead of being mindless drones. And given the increasingly complex issues the US faces today (and the knowledge required to objectively analyze these issues), education in some form is necessary.



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          • #6
            Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

            Originally posted by tau_neutrino
            Although our primary education system isn't that great, I place most of the blame on American culture. We don't seem to value education as much as we should. This attitude manifests itself in the current generation which can point out the finer points of useless pop culture trivia, but is ridiculously ignorant when it comes to knowledge of real value. Therefore, it's mainly the students' fault, but our poor education system cannot be absolved of blame.
            It is indeed a societal problem. I'm saddened every year or so when an article on American ignorance is brought to the forefront by questioning Americans on simple world geography. Not knowing where Iraq is on a world map is one thing. Not knowing where the United States of America is located is quite another. Depressing...

            IMO there should be some sort of competency test(s) in order for a citizen/representative to vote. Democracy would likely work much better if the voters are educated and able to think for themselves instead of being mindless drones. And given the increasingly complex issues the US faces today (and the knowledge required to objectively analyze these issues), education in some form is necessary.
            I talk to naturalized citizens that are in jail or prison on a regular basis. I always ask them about the oath that they took to become a US Citizen, specifically about swearing to support the Constitution and laws of the United States. I tell them to look around at all the natural born US citizens that took no such oath. I honestly believe that naturalized citizens should hold themselves in higher regard than natural born citizens because they had to prove themselves worthy of citizenship. I'm not sure if that's right or wrong, but that's how I feel, and every day that feeling is reinforced. I would fully support an amendment to our Constitution that would require a test before allowing people to vote or even to become a citizen.
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            • #7
              Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

              Originally posted by CingularDuality
              I just recently created a MySpace page...
              This was your first mistake, I thought it was a set-up for a joke. :D

              Originally posted by CingularDuality
              ...and have been browsing the pages of people from my high school graduating class... I'm disgusted by the number of people that have bachelor's and master's degrees that aren't able to spell simple words or that don't care to correct typos.

              I've got only a high school diploma, and it's worth next to nothing professionally. Frankly, I don't see how a college degree is worth anything, either, after working with so many dumb college grads...
              Well, I know plenty of dumb people. You're right, there are dumb people regardless of level of education. But I'm baffled that you don't see value in a college education. College isn't for everyone. It shouldn't be for everyone. But it is what you make it while you're there.

              @ TAU and Cingular: There used to be tests to participate in our democracy, gender and color were among them. I am completely against any sort of IQ or standards test for people to be able to participate in the US democratic process. If you're a law abiding citizen (naturalized or born into it), it shouldn't matter if you're as dumb as a post or as smart as Hawkings, you should be able to participate in our democracy.
              ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
              No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

              <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

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              • #8
                Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                So maybe do something like some other countries do. Before highschool do an entry test, those that pass go on, those that fail go to a trade school. I have always been a fan of that idea.


                Yeah i to was waiting for the myspace joke.....
                that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                -Vulcan

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                • #9
                  Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                  Frankly, I don't see how a college degree is worth anything, either, after working with so many dumb college grads...
                  I think it depends on the major. Try showing up for work as a fresh organic chemist, biologist, geophysicist, actuary, etc., without several college level courses, hundreds of skipped classes, dozens of keggers, and several coyote sunrises under your belt.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                    Originally posted by leejo
                    I think it depends on the major. Try showing up for work as a fresh organic chemist, biologist, geophysicist, actuary, etc., without several college level courses, hundreds of skipped classes, dozens of keggers, and several coyote sunrises under your belt.
                    If I didn't train my liver during college, I would never make it through "business" dinners in the oil industry. :)
                    ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
                    No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

                    <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                      Originally posted by Rincewind
                      If you're a law abiding citizen (naturalized or born into it), it shouldn't matter if you're as dumb as a post or as smart as Hawkings, you should be able to participate in our democracy.
                      I agree. I think it's very dangerous to advocate creating a system in which people affected by laws have no representation. However, government makes arbitrary decisions all the time, it's one of their main functions. Should the speed limit be 55 or 60? Or 140? What is it about 18 year olds that makes them capable voters but not 17 year olds (other than the fact that the former can be drafted)? Etc.

                      It would require an amendment, though, and so is moot. This doesn't seem like an issue likely to garner broad bipartisan support.

                      I think the real problem with this sort of system is that it represents the nations' having abandoned its effort to guarantee an educated electorate. In other words, the "fair" way to ensure that the People vote wisely is not to test them against some scale but to educate them to meet that scale. These exit exams should be seen as a measure the State's performance, not the childrens'.

                      After all who will fail these tests? Wealthy children? Probably not. No when you require people to pass a test to vote, you are basically ensuring that large groups of the poor will no longer have the ability to vote.

                      Having said all of this, it is the child's responsibility to pass the test. It's their diploma, and their future. I think this drama in CA is unexcusable: these kids farted around and got busted for it. What is the rememdy? Surely they can take the test again in the future and do better?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                        I can't get past the mispelling in title.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                          Thanks jerk..... :p
                          that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                          -Vulcan

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                          • #14
                            Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                            Originally posted by TG_Mateo
                            I can't get past the mispelling in title.
                            I was going to say something about irony, but I didn't want to upset leejo.
                            ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
                            No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

                            <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Exit exams: Students fault or Eduations fault

                              Originally posted by TG_Mateo
                              I can't get past the mispelling in title.
                              I know! I was like "Who's Eduation? Let's beat his ass for screwing up these kids' exams!"

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