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  • YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

    I've never understood why gay marriage should be accepted but not polygamy. In fact, I've never understood why polygamy gets a bad rap in the first place; if some guy can convince three women to marry him, all the more power to him! And likewise for the women out there - if you're into having three husbands, and they're down, then go for it! Why should it be any of my business?

    Furthermore, in the gay marriage debate between Stewart and Bennet, Stewart keeps repeating that "homosexuality is not a choice," and insinuates that polygamy is. Not only do I question the relevance of that point to this debate, I also question the legitimacy (or shall we say truthiness?) of that statement. Why should it weaken Stewart et. al.'s position for homosexuality to be a choice? Is everything which is not a choice acceptable? Of course not! Stewart is conceding the moral high ground to his opponent when he rests upon this assertion. And even if homosexuality were in fact not a choice, why can polygamy also not be choice?

    Finally, why do polygamists care about the legal status of their marriages - I don't believe there are any laws against having long term sexual relations with more than one person simultaneously, are there? If polygamists simply avoid marriage licenses altogether, aren't they in the clear?
    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

  • #2
    Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

    From what I've read being a pedophile is not a choice either. I don't think "choosing" or not "choosing" is a very good basis for making decisions like this. Other than Job Stewart, I haven't heard anyone make the argument that this should be a deciding factor in the debate.

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    • #3
      Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

      You know, I'm a fan of the ladies. Big fan.

      But I never chose to be that way. Why on earth would I assume that someone who is attracted to their own gender to have made some choice? I've even asked some of my friends who know about these things. They didn't choose either.

      Would a person who has chosen their sexual orientation please let me know? Maybe post it here. Let me know what the pros and cons were when you were mulling it over, and how you came to your final decision. Is it like buying a car? Do you need to take the different genders out for a test drive, before really settling down into one that you're happy with?

      FWIW, I hear the "homosexuality is a choice" meme as the prelude to (or as a last defense of) all kinds of arguments against gay marriage. That's why it needs to be made clear that it is not a choice.

      I tend to agree with JS that polygamy is purely a choice - in the same way that getting married is. People can make a choice to get married. Polygamists just make that choice again and again.

      Edit: Polygamists make that choice again and again - for better or for worse. I'm not really wanting to say much on polygamy here except to state that it definately looks like a choice to me.
      Last edited by Diceman; 06-10-2006, 10:11 PM.

      [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
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      Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
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      • #4
        Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

        If a consenting group of adults of any gender wants to get married/civil union/whatever, I don't see what the problem is. Polygamy (both polygyny and polyandry) has historically been part of thriving human societies whether we like it or not.



        TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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        • #5
          Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

          Originally posted by xTYBALTx
          Finally, why do polygamists care about the legal status of their marriages - I don't believe there are any laws against having long term sexual relations with more than one person simultaneously, are there? If polygamists simply avoid marriage licenses altogether, aren't they in the clear?
          For the same reason that the GBL community needs "marriage". Think about all of the parts of a heterosexual relationship that have financial and legal issues infused.
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          • #6
            Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

            I could never figure out why in hell anyone would want more than one wife.
            Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
            Ernest Hemingway, "On the Blue Water," Esquire, April 1936

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            • #7
              Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

              Originally posted by GhostintheShell
              I could never figure out why in hell anyone would want more than one wife.
              ... because you can only have a maximum of one and one-third offspring per year per wife?

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              • #8
                Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                Originally posted by Diceman
                FWIW, I hear the "homosexuality is a choice" meme as the prelude to (or as a last defense of) all kinds of arguments against gay marriage.
                Why is that? Why does it weaken the pro-gay-marriage crowd's argument for homosexuality not to be a choice?
                A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                  Originally posted by RandomGuy
                  ... because you can only have a maximum of one and one-third offspring per year per wife?
                  Haha...one only has to be married for a decade or more to really understand what I'm saying when I question the sanity of anyone who would want more than one wife.
                  Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
                  Ernest Hemingway, "On the Blue Water," Esquire, April 1936

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                  • #10
                    Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                    Originally posted by xTYBALTx
                    Why is that? Why does it weaken the pro-gay-marriage crowd's argument for homosexuality not to be a choice?
                    I don't think it does. My opponent may believe that it does, but I see it as a false premise.

                    From false premises can be derived any conclusion that you please.

                    If someone wanted to convince me that it actually is a choice, well, you'd need to show me some surveys of gays and lesbians. And you had better be prepared to offer a rigorous defense of your methods.

                    To me, saying that homosexuality is a choice holds as much water as saying that race is a choice.

                    When did you choose your orientation?

                    [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
                    [ma-c2][taw-c1]

                    Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
                    Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

                    Treat others as you would have them treat you

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                      I am for the removal of all legal and financial links to marriage. They never should have been there, and there is no more perfect time than now to clean them up.

                      After that, I am behind whatever the churches and the justices of the peace choose to support.

                      You can marry your cat for all I care.
                      Peace through fear... since 1947!

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                      • #12
                        Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                        Originally posted by Diceman
                        I don't think it does. My opponent may believe that it does, but I see it as a false premise.

                        From false premises can be derived any conclusion that you please.

                        If someone wanted to convince me that it actually is a choice, well, you'd need to show me some surveys of gays and lesbians. And you had better be prepared to offer a rigorous defense of your methods.

                        To me, saying that homosexuality is a choice holds as much water as saying that race is a choice.

                        When did you choose your orientation?
                        I am certain that you have your rigourous defense of Nature (No Choice, Nature dictates from birth) include exhaustive surveys of gays and lesbians? I would hate to see assumptions from one side with a lack of proof demand data from the other side used to silence opposition. I spent quite a bit of time in college studying psychology around the BF Skinner model and am a strong believer that behavior including sexual orientation is driven by nurture as well as nature.

                        Lucky Shot

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                        • #13
                          Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                          Originally posted by icky
                          I am for the removal of all legal and financial links to marriage. They never should have been there, and there is no more perfect time than now to clean them up.

                          After that, I am behind whatever the churches and the justices of the peace choose to support.

                          You can marry your cat for all I care.
                          I agree that the legal and financial links should be removed. I also think this is such an important issue that in a democracy, we should let the people decide. Not Courts. Not Mayors. Not an elected body. Let's vote on it.

                          Lucky Shot

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                          • #14
                            Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                            I think the fact that something isn't a choice is irrelevant in determining whether or not society should sanction it. By all accounts pedophilia is not a choice and requires extensive counseling to control, if that's even possible. I don't see the "we're gay! You know, like pedophiles!" movement taking off.

                            The main difference between polygamy and homosexual marriage is that marriage is defined as a relationship between two people, currently one man and one woman. While there may be parts of the constitution that prohibit the male/female distinction, there is nothing in the constitution that has a problem with the 2-person limit.

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                            • #15
                              Re: YES to Gay Marriage but NO to Polygamy?

                              My opinion comes from the fact that I never chose, nor has anyone I ever spoke to, regarding this particular issue. It ain't a survey, but it's darn convincing for me. Again, when did you choose your orientation, and what were the deciding factors? My demand for meticulous data comes from the fact that the conjecture of choice runs against everything I know. Even then, I'm willing to have the discussion, but you'd better have good data.

                              Leejo hit it just right. Let's talk about these things from the understanding that some things aren't choices. I'm not (here and now) making an argument for or against gay marriage - but I feel very much that orientation is not a choice. That doesn't mean that it should automatically have social sanction, for the exact reason leejo laid out. But it does inform our discussion and allow us to make arguments from a common groundwork of premises and understanding.

                              [drill][medic][conduct][tg-c1][tpf-c1]
                              [ma-c2][taw-c1]

                              Principles of good Sandbox Etiquette:
                              Assume good faith - Be polite, please! - Work toward agreement. - Argue facts, not personalities. - Concede a point when you have no response to it, or admit when you disagree based on intuition or taste. - Be civil. - Be prepared to apologize. In animated discussions, we often say things we later wish we hadn't. Say so. - Forgive and forget. - Recognize your own biases and keep them in check. - Give praise when due.

                              Treat others as you would have them treat you

                              Comment

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