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  • Justified or not? (police shooting)...

    WARNING: this is real in car camera footage of a police shooting, watch at your own risk


    The below has been circulating around to fellow officers for a few months now, a good "lesson"... now I know what us cops think, but I'd like to share it with a few mature members of TG, for your opinion, feedback, or maybe just to change some precept ions of cops...


    Before you watch the two attached videos, please read this.

    Be sure to watch the videos in proper sequence (first #1, then #2). These
    are videos of an officer-involved shooting. Watch the first video (from
    the on board dash cam of the third cruiser involved in the high-speed chase)
    and make your best determination on whether this is a "good shooting" or not.
    Be sure to watch the pertinent part of the video several times.

    Once you have made your initial determination, watch video #2. This is
    from the on board camera of the second cruiser that was involved in the
    high-speed chase. Does this! change your mind?

    Moral of the story: Next time we see the video of the police using deadly
    force on the 6 O'clock news, don't jump to any conclusions that the
    officer was not justified in his decision. Good training video.
    Video 1 (Watch first)...
    http://www.magnumland.com/Videos/Pol...otSuspect1.wmv

    then watch this one...
    http://www.magnumland.com/Videos/Pol...otSuspect2.wmv


    So... what did you think after watching the first one?

    Then the second?

    Remember the moral of the story. ;)
    Magnum |TG-18th|


    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


  • #2
    Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

    Good videos. I really thought the officer was in the wrong until I got to see the second one. Of course no matter who was right or wrong someone like Al Sharpton probably jumped in and started waving the race card. I was brought up in a police family (3 generations) and am a little biased towards officers using deadly force. I believe that the officer is in the best position to determine the level and amount of force needed to subdue or eliminate a threat. TV stations just show the worst possible angle to get the best possible ratings. You're right those are damn good training videos.







    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

      Maybe a little too much shooting, but I'll buy "good". Just seemed like a lot of lead, I suppose.
      [volun2]
      NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues.
      Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality.
      <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity
      <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash

      Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

        well thats kind of what happened...

        The nightly news showed the first video without explaining, just saying the police were investigating... needless to say the whole community got into an uproar, till the second video was shown... then the whites (mostly) said.. "oh, that was justified", while the black community (most but not all of course) continued to protest...which is par for the course on any police action.

        and I don't say this to be a racist...it's fact, fact from 20 plus years of observing it.
        Magnum |TG-18th|


        We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

          Excellent training vids!
          LoyalGuard

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

            Maybe a little too much shooting, but I'll buy "good". Just seemed like a lot of lead, I suppose.
            I understand and agree to a point... just don't forget, it's not the movies... most people, especially if there high on PCP or Coke, don't go down with one or two, or even three shots...

            They use to teach double tap, now we teach shoot to the threat is down. and with a simple 9mm, that could possibly take a whole mag. ;)
            Magnum |TG-18th|


            We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

              Originally posted by Pokerface
              Maybe a little too much shooting, but I'll buy "good". Just seemed like a lot of lead, I suppose.
              Normally I'd say yes as well...but...I was always taught shoot until your target goes down. As long as he is up and has that gun, he is a threat. There's a good chance that a lot of those rounds missed. Adrenaline definitely screws up your aim...even that close.

              EDIT: Magnum beat me to it...

              p.s. Was there a report on how many rounds hit the suspect Magnum?
              LoyalGuard

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              • #8
                Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                There's no real moral of the story. One instance in which deadly force is justified does not serve as proof that deadly force is always used properly, nor does one instance in which deadly force is unjustified serve as proof that deadly force is never justified. Each should be judged on a case by case basis.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                  I thought it was a good shooting from just the first video. It's clear the guy has a gun as he walks in front of the cruiser, then shortly later points it at the officer.

                  The only problem I have with the video is what others have stated: quite a bit of shots fired. From what I can tell, the officer on the right of the suspect misses with pretty much all of his shots, while the one behind the suspect is who actually puts the dude down. So either the perp was temporarily superman, or these guys need better firearms training.
                  [squadl]
                  "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                    Originally posted by SmokingTarpan
                    So either the perp was temporarily superman, or these guys need better firearms training.
                    Might be a little of both here. The perp might have been on a "substance" or the officer might have been all over the place with his rounds. One other thing to consider is that the officer on the right might have been firing a 9mm. Those things will hardly punch though a wet phone book much less put down a guy who's probably 200lbs with one shot.







                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                      Without a question, good shoot.

                      Had that been a citizen doing the shooting, without film proof, he would probably be going to jail for shooting the man in the back though. Even Colorado's "Make My Day" law doesn't allow that. A target with his back to you is "not supposed" to pose a threat to you.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                        Originally posted by Magnum50

                        while the black community (most but not all of course) continued to protest...which is par for the course on any police action.

                        and I don't say this to be a racist...it's fact, fact from 20 plus years of observing it.
                        I'll preface my remarks by saying it's hard for me to hear wide and sweeping generalizations coming from a member of a law enforcement agency. I know it's only human and all of us, no matter what our background or profession fall into that trap at times in our lives. I'm an idealist but I guess I expect more from a member of a law enforcement agency.

                        Magnum--don't take all of what I said above in the wrong way. Of course I only know you through your website and your forum posts here so it's an educated guess at best that you are not a person of color. I wonder if any of your colleagues in the ranks who are a person of color would say the same things you say about the race issue...say a beat patrolman in the Bronx or even in Miami.
                        __________________________________________________ __

                        On the topic of the videos--I'm not on the thin blue line and nor will I ever be so I'm not too comfortable making a judgement call on something I have no training or expertise in. That said-- regardless of which tape you look at the suspect's got his back to the officers when he's shot dead. I can certainly understand why some members of the community would question that...and remember...they probably never had the training or insight you had either.

                        What is the sop here?...I have no idea...could he have been taken down with a bear hug to prevent him from raising his weapon again.?..or could the officers have taken cover to see if he would drop the gun on his own...?

                        **caution-ranting about to proceed**

                        I know several cops and I work closely with a former State Trooper who made it to the top investigators spot in the CT State Fire Marshals Office. He's told me some pretty hair raising stories about abusing suspects and perpetrators. He, and the other officers I know are some of the most cynical people I know. Sometimes it scares me how much contempt police officers seem to carry for civilians. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I think about the time a young police officer who was standing on the street corner started yelling at me and my girlfriend because her 8 year old stepped off the curb a beat too early. He berated us as parents really. His outburst was explosive and unexpected, scaring all of us...I turned and yelled back at him in the same tone of voice asking him what was wrong with him that he couldn't deal with us in a civil manner...I took his badge number and promised to report him to his superiors. to this day I'm disgusted with his response...He had the gall to reply back that "I don't get paid enough to deal with people like you"

                        ** rant over **

                        I'm sorry--I didn't mean to go on a ranting tangent and thus I suddenly realize I probably should not have made any comments on whether this shooting is justified or not. I'm biased

                        On the question of second guessing these guys...I'm not too comfortable with that...but you asked for an opinon so there is my .02
                        sigpic
                        |TG-1st|Grunt
                        ARMA Admin (retired)
                        Pathfinder-Spartan 5

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                          This topic killed two kittens. What would Cing say? ;)
                          ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
                          No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

                          <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                            Originally posted by Grunt 70
                            That said-- regardless of which tape you look at the suspect's got his back to the officers when he's shot dead. I can certainly understand why some members of the community would question that...and remember...they probably never had the training or insight you had either.

                            What is the sop here?...I have no idea...could he have been taken down with a bear hug to prevent him from raising his weapon again.?..or could the officers have taken cover to see if he would drop the gun on his own...?
                            Sort of...and sort of not. The suspect had his back turned to the officers for most of the video, but he briefly turned and pointed his gun at the head of the second officer! It was at that moment that the first officer began to shoot, although it took awhile for them to actually bring him down and by that point he had turned around again.

                            But once you have started shooting at a guy with a gun, you really can't afford to STOP shooting until he drops it. He may or may not have been willing to shoot back before, but its a good bet he will be now!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Justified or not? (police shooting)...

                              Two things.

                              1. Good shoot, they should've fired upon the suspect sooner. When he first turned, they should've put him down. It was odd to wait for the 2nd time.

                              2. He was definitely on a substance, and even with his back turned, he was a threat to the officers. People on meth/crack/whatever don't think rationally and may not have even felt the bullets hitting him. what took him down could've damn well been a shot to the base of the neck or head. I've read about a guy who was high on meth that fought with cops for 1 minute after having his heart ripped open from a direct shot from a .40.

                              What is the sop here?...I have no idea...could he have been taken down with a bear hug to prevent him from raising his weapon again.?..or could the officers have taken cover to see if he would drop the gun on his own...?
                              This guys actions are not of a rational person. We are taught to shoot until the threat is neutralized. As has been stated earlier, adrenaline can cause you to miss your target so he may not have been hit with even half of those shots. Trying to take down someone high on drugs down with a bearhug is not only dangerous to the officer, it's dangerous to any bystanders who could be hit if this guy starts firing his gun. This is the call you have to make. Who's life is more valuable? The innocent bystander who has done nothing, or the guy who did "who know's what" that caused him to be pursued by at least 2 cruisers and fired upon by officers?

                              Magnum, thanks for sharing. Good to see those officers will go home to their families.

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