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Iraq: Losing the American Way

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  • Iraq: Losing the American Way

    Good opinion from The American Conservative.


    By repudiating our historic ways of war and democratization, the Bush administration threatens attempts at nation-building elsewhere.

    http://amconmag.com/2004_03_15/feature.html

  • #2
    Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

    Originally posted by NetGarg
    Good opinion from The American Conservative.





    http://amconmag.com/2004_03_15/feature.html
    I can't believe you would post this on the same day that Iraq is signing their constitution.

    Y'know, maybe things will work out in Iraq, maybe they won't. But it's not going to be because the Bush Administration didn't do things the way that The American Conservative likes... Things have definitely changed in the world in the last few years. The way we wage war must be different. The way we offer our diplomacy must likewise be different. No longer can we sit on our high horse and wait for the entire rest of the world to come to a concensus. As we've seen, our enemy is now more than willing to bring the war to us...
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    • #3
      Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

      Originally posted by CingularDuality
      I can't believe you would post this on the same day that Iraq is signing their constitution.

      Y'know, maybe things will work out in Iraq, maybe they won't. But it's not going to be because the Bush Administration didn't do things the way that The American Conservative likes... Things have definitely changed in the world in the last few years. The way we wage war must be different. The way we offer our diplomacy must likewise be different. No longer can we sit on our high horse and wait for the entire rest of the world to come to a concensus. As we've seen, our enemy is now more than willing to bring the war to us...

      here here

      and why does your point say a good opinion... you started the thread. and from the bat it is biased....

      i agree with you there cing... god i cantr emagine what your country and possibly ours would be like had clinton have been in power... i suppose he would have rather took bin laden on holidaqy to the caribean to discuss the problem....


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      • #4
        Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

        Originally posted by DudeMan
        here here

        and why does your point say a good opinion... you started the thread. and from the bat it is biased....

        i agree with you there cing... god i cantr emagine what your country and possibly ours would be like had clinton have been in power... i suppose he would have rather took bin laden on holidaqy to the caribean to discuss the problem....




        I said "good opinion" because I liked it. Being a liberal I rarley agree with conservatives so I really don't think it's biased. And as for what Clinton would have done, well thats a moot point because he was not in office when it happened. If we want to start with the what if's then I would have to say that maybe the attacks would not have happened "if" Clinton was in office, or Gore for that matter. In case you don't know, Clinton did spend a lot of time, effort and money on combating and preventing terrorist actions. A month before Clinton left office, his administration was praised by two former Reagan counterterrorism officials. "Overall, I give him very high marks", Robert Oakley, who served as ambassador for counterterrorism in the Reagan State Department, told the Washington Post. "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama, which makes him stronger." Paul Bremer told the Post he believed the Clinton administration had "correctly focused on Bin Laden."
        Last edited by NetGarg; 03-08-2004, 12:37 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

          Originally posted by NetGarg
          I said "good opinion" because I liked it. Being a liberal I rarley agree with conservatives so I really don't think it's biased. And as for what Clinton would have done, well thats a moot point because he was not in office when it happened. If we want to start with the what if's then I would have to say that maybe the attacks would not have happened "if" Clinton was in office, or Gore for that matter. In case you don't know, Clinton did spend a lot of time, effort and money on combating and preventing terrorist actions.

          right ok so you agreed but that isnt how you start a post. you dont give the info you feel first. you give the argument then tyou give your input. othjerwise it becomes difficult to decifer what you said and what the argument is.


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          • #6
            Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

            Originally posted by DudeMan
            right ok so you agreed but that isnt how you start a post. you dont give the info you feel first. you give the argument then tyou give your input. othjerwise it becomes difficult to decifer what you said and what the argument is.

            There was no argument intended, I though it was a good opinion and thus thought others might like to read it.

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            • #7
              Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

              Originally posted by NetGarg
              There was no argument intended, I though it was a good opinion and thus thought others might like to read it.

              yeah totally mate i am not ragging on you.. more like a warning.. the amount of times people have had a go at me for the same reason... i just thought i would get in there first before a fenzy insued with all the guys who like to make an argument where there isnt one.


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              • #8
                Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                Originally posted by CingularDuality
                I can't believe you would post this on the same day that Iraq is signing their constitution.

                Y'know, maybe things will work out in Iraq, maybe they won't. But it's not going to be because the Bush Administration didn't do things the way that The American Conservative likes... Things have definitely changed in the world in the last few years. The way we wage war must be different. The way we offer our diplomacy must likewise be different. No longer can we sit on our high horse and wait for the entire rest of the world to come to a concensus. As we've seen, our enemy is now more than willing to bring the war to us...
                So what do you suggest, and why should you need to "offer diplomacy" in the first place?
                Last edited by NetGarg; 03-08-2004, 01:41 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                  Originally posted by NetGarg
                  So what do you suggest, and why should you need to "offer diplomacy" in the first place?
                  I suggest voting for a strong leader that you feel can do exactly that. Personally, I like the way President Bush is leading our country. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But he is our elected leader and they are his mistakes to make. I have a feeling that you feel that someone else would be better suited to that role. I don't doubt that there are more liberal politicians out there that would also be great leaders, but after President Bush Sr. and President Clinton, this is a refreshing change.

                  Why offer diplomacy? Because if you can win a war of words, it's infinitely better than a war involving death and destruction. Unfortunately, diplomacy doesn't always work and decisive leadership and a proactive military action are the best answer to a problem.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                    By repudiating our historic ways of war and democratization
                    Well that's the first time I've ever heard someone claim or imply that the wars *anyone* has fought in the past were the "most optimal" method of waging war.

                    Do you seriously think that *anyone* on the anti-war anti-occupation side of things would actually be less offended or less hostile if the West had 300,000 troops in Iraq right now instead of 120,000?

                    Every single Iraqi blog I read shows that the Iraqi's (at least those who have a clue and are educated, as opposed to the unwashed masses) desperately want the Americans to stay long enough until they get their country working properly, so that once they do leave the country doesn't immediately fall into civil war or a strict islamic state.

                    However, the origins of the American way of war lie in the greatest American conflict of all, the Civil War.
                    Didn't they raize the south to the ground? How could *anyone* compare anything from 200 years ago with now. With the middle east?

                    I'm not saying that what is being done is optimal. I'm saying it's idiotic to do such a poor job of back-seat-driving recent history. This is the dumbest article I've ever seen.

                    And I'm a center-of-the-path Canadian, not a right wing American.

                    Ok, here's good back-seat driving:

                    1. The pentagon asked for 3-400,000 troops because they looked at the troop levels required to properly control the aftermath of all that Baltic crud in the 90's, and Rumsfield and the penny pinchers shot them down (feeling all pumped up with how well things went in Afghanistan). Hence the massive amounts of basic law and disorder in Bagdahd in the weeks and months afterwards.

                    2. They tried to have an occupation plan in place, but clearly they counted on too much "social and governmental infrastructure" surviving the fall of the regiem, and over the 3-6 months after the fall even westernized Iraqi's would say that "it seems like the administration did not anticipate a single need for post-fall activities, they are reacting to everything like it was something totally unexpected".

                    3. There's almost no way to have guessed ahead of time what the right mix of carrot and stick would be "optimal" for the post war arena. Personally I'm awaiting to see how well the "increased sugar/carrot" ratio that the new marine divisions taking over in the 2nd rotation want to use, will do instead of the more aggressive counter-insurgency operations currently being run by certain army divisions.

                    4. Almost no-one expected basic Iraqi society to be as messed up as it is (go read any of the 35 or so Iraqi blogs on the web). (One amusing story from a blogger's personal experience: A raving drunk man with an AK47 is found in the middle of the night by a Dutch patrol. They warn him, they talk to him, he raves and rants and shoots his gun randomly into the sky, so they shoot a warning shot, no change, so they shoot him in the leg, no change and in fact his random shooting becomes even more dangerous, so they shoot him dead. And the drunken guy's tribe is *offended* and threatens to kill a Dutch trooper in return unless they "make right" aka pay them off. So the Dutch do something that no-Iraqi expected - they APOLOGIZE IN PERSON, AND pay the dead man's family for their loss. And on top of that, the local council in a meeting says "we'd better keep our guns in case we have any more trouble with the Dutch". It took this one westernized (literate sane) Iraqi over a half hour to convince the council that a) the Dutch troops were more than patient and in the right and doing exactly what *anyone* should have done, Iraqi or Peacekeeper, and that b) it was idiotic to have acted they way that they did!!) That's the type of "screwed up society" they have that needs to be changed before a real democracy can work properly without imploding down there.

                    5. I've heard reports from Iraqi's that western corporations are being given 50 million dollar contracts to rebuild bridges that Iraqi companies themselves are bidding as little as half a million to a million dollars to rebuild. Those type of decisions may be behind the excessive "rebuilding" costs, and would seriously undermine the reform and rebuilding of Iraq. As one US Major/General keeps reminding his superiors, money is ammunition.

                    Seriously, I was up until 5am last night reading blogs written by Iraqi's in Iraq. It's not nearly as bad as things could be (one direct quote from an Iraqi - "if this was Grozny or Tehran or Palestine, things would be a 100 times worse - hundreds of foreigners would be kidnapped, all the religious leaders would have been assassinated months ago, all the buildings would be in rubble, and we'd be living under a strict islamic state - so things can't be all that bad").

                    That's not to say that it can't get worse.

                    I really do think the south (Basra) will end up either splitting away and being put under the heel of a strict islamic state (there are just too many religious extremists down there already imposing their will through brute savgae violence on the majority, no one sells alcohol openy lest they be shot by a masked squad at night), or there will be civil war in the south.

                    The Kurds probably will have the long term patience and global political forsight to take things slow and go along with the "Iraqi" country, until such time as they can politely separate without getting into their own civil war (which they have to do, seeing as *all* of their neighbours would get involved should they resort to violence).

                    In central Iraq around the capital, there are really good signs of the Shia and Sunni *not* blaming one another despite all the terrorist provocations. So they bitch about the foreign "occupation", who cares - sticks and stonce yadda yadda yadda, at least they aren't openly revolting or worse starting a civil war amongst themselves. (Seriously, after one recent Shia cleric was killed one night, the Sunni's were there the next day to offer condolences and both groups were talking about how they were not going to blame one another and that they were one people and would not let foreigners divide them.)

                    I'd better stop, I have work to do.. and I've written enough.

                    http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
                    http://iraqblogcount.blogspot.com/

                    And I wonder why I haven't been playing games lately. :p

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                    • #11
                      Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                      Originally posted by CingularDuality
                      Personally, I like the way President Bush is leading our country. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But he is our elected leader ...
                      Ahem.

                      ---------------
                      Wintermute

                      Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                        This is a perfect example of people talking out of both sides of their mouths. The people who say that we shouldn't have sent any troops into Iraq are the only people complaining that we didn't send enough.

                        It makes perfect sense to send 300,000 troops into Iraq until you consider global security concerns. Iraq wasn't the only country worrying planners, and they had to consider the possibility of needing 300,000 troops somewhere else. What if N. Korea had chosed 5/1 as a good day to start a war? The same people saying that the US didn't have enough troops in Iraq would be screaming that we had sent too many.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                          Originally posted by leejo
                          This is a perfect example of people talking out of both sides of their mouths. The people who say that we shouldn't have sent any troops into Iraq are the only people complaining that we didn't send enough.

                          It makes perfect sense to send 300,000 troops into Iraq until you consider global security concerns. Iraq wasn't the only country worrying planners, and they had to consider the possibility of needing 300,000 troops somewhere else. What if N. Korea had chosed 5/1 as a good day to start a war? The same people saying that the US didn't have enough troops in Iraq would be screaming that we had sent too many.

                          first of all i agree with your argument here. the people who say send more get it over quicker balh blah... need their head examined. enemies a country will wait until that country is at its weakest. therefore if you leave your self unable to defend yourself because you are attacking another then you leave yourself open to attack.

                          i Think the entire war was a raging success.

                          and wintermute. that is not an argument.


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                          • #14
                            Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                            Originally posted by DudeMan
                            and wintermute. that is not an argument.
                            I may be wrong, but I think he was subtly referring to the election fiasco. That's a completely different discussion, though...
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                            • #15
                              Re: Iraq: Losing the American Way

                              Originally posted by CingularDuality
                              I may be wrong, but I think he was subtly referring to the election fiasco. That's a completely different discussion, though...

                              yeah totally


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