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Don't Loot!

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  • Don't Loot!

    Just watch it!

    http://www.kn34.net/videos/DontLoot.wmv
    I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
    --Douglas Adams

  • #2
    Re: Don't Loot!

    hmmm. i wander if those were orders from command or just a bunch of gi's acting like they own the place..

    the car was the mans livelyhood. and that is not a very good illustration of law and order. the qualities we are supposed to be brining to iraq.


    www.TeamElement.com

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    • #3
      Re: Don't Loot!

      A little bit extreme for stealing wood wouldn't you say and then the morons got it wrong anyway as it wasn't the looters car. Of course since none of these soldiers were educated (in Iraqi language amongst other things) I guess the point would have been difficult to get across anyway.

      I did think the camera man was gonna get it for a while there though.
      Jex.

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      • #4
        Re: Don't Loot!

        I'm thinking... if a tank tried to do that in BF1942, the tank and car would blow up!

        Back to topic, that was a poor way of setting an example with the looters. It seemed like some soldiers looking for some fun because I have to admit that seeing a car crushed like that is cool.

        - It's who you game with.

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        • #5
          Re: Don't Loot!

          What I don't get is why they shot the car with pistols first? Was that to soften it up a bit for the tank?
          Jex.

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          • #6
            Re: Don't Loot!

            Originally posted by DudeMan
            hmmm. i wander if those were orders from command or just a bunch of gi's acting like they own the place..

            the car was the mans livelyhood. and that is not a very good illustration of law and order. the qualities we are supposed to be brining to iraq.

            yeah, I agree... car crushing is cool in a big arena with "bigfoot" and "gravedigger", but going around destroying other's folks stuff is a bit childish.

            Now if there was a cache of weps in the car, and those guys were seen to start towards them to arm themselves, sure, crush the car for good measure.

            I dunno... I"ve never been in combat, so I really can't say much, but to the untrained observer, these guys were just fuqqin around.

            And I would be pissed if I was an owner/operator cab driver.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Don't Loot!

              Originally posted by fr1j0l3
              yeah, I agree... car crushing is cool in a big arena with "bigfoot" and "gravedigger", but going around destroying other's folks stuff is a bit childish.

              Now if there was a cache of weps in the car, and those guys were seen to start towards them to arm themselves, sure, crush the car for good measure.

              I dunno... I"ve never been in combat, so I really can't say much, but to the untrained observer, these guys were just fuqqin around.

              And I would be pissed if I was an owner/operator cab driver.
              Well. I'm not sure what to think. I know what I see, and I know what I hear people claim. But the only thing I know for sure is a tank drove over a car. The commentary about the car being a cab and the guy's liveleyhood isn't something I have any reason to believe. The cameraman didn't interview the guy, nor was any footage taken of the distressed cab driver.
              Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

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              • #8
                Re: Don't Loot!

                Originally posted by Apophis
                Well. I'm not sure what to think. I know what I see, and I know what I hear people claim. But the only thing I know for sure is a tank drove over a car. The commentary about the car being a cab and the guy's liveleyhood isn't something I have any reason to believe. The cameraman didn't interview the guy, nor was any footage taken of the distressed cab driver.
                That is pretty much my first reaction, too. I'm not sure what the deal with this is. It doesn't add up. That could be for a number of reasons- some of which include the GI's just being total crass bleepholes. Other reasons could be that the footage is fake, intending to persuade the viewer into seeing the men as bleepholes. (The guys they spoke to might have nothing to do with the car. The voice over could be adding inappropriate and inaccurate commentary).

                Hmm.

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                • #9
                  Re: Don't Loot!

                  Originally posted by =luna=
                  That is pretty much my first reaction, too. I'm not sure what the deal with this is. It doesn't add up. That could be for a number of reasons- some of which include the GI's just being total crass bleepholes. Other reasons could be that the footage is fake, intending to persuade the viewer into seeing the men as bleepholes. (The guys they spoke to might have nothing to do with the car. The voice over could be adding inappropriate and inaccurate commentary).

                  Hmm.
                  Exactly..

                  I am also not sure what the laws are there, nor how they need to be enforced considering the circumstances. If you were in the US and using your vehicle to steal and transport goods, your vehicle would most likely be seized. I know a lot of impounded vehicles are eventually advertised to make their way to auctions or parts yards, but destruction of the vehicle would no more return it to the offender's hands than selling it or parting it.

                  And yeah, it could just be a simple as it appears and be a dumb ass tank crew.
                  Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Don't Loot!

                    "the most obvious answer is usually the right one"


                    But I understand your wariness/scepticism.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Don't Loot!

                      Not cool. Not cool at all. I do agree that we don't have the whole story, but I still don't like what I see.

                      No disrespect intended, but even in a modern western army you get some uncool stuff.** That's just what happens when you put a quarter million young guys together, eventually you get a group here or there that do something outa line.

                      *Strongly* reminds me of another incident that's currently "under investigation". Some civies were late getting back to their neighbourhood what with the curfew and all. They had had some car trouble or something earlier in the night that delayed them from getting home in time. They went through an Iraqi Police checkpoint just before the curfew time as they were on their way home, but then came across an American patrol. Standard procedure should have been to take the civies into custody (and usually they get released the next day), but instead the troops took the two guys to a dam and threw them into the water (where the strong currents through an open dam gate drowned one of the two who wasn't a good swimmer).

                      Their car was found the next morning. Crushed.

                      The patrol confirms that they detained the two men shortly after the curfew, and that they walked the men to the dam and "released them". Their unit commander did not find fault and no discipline was handed out, as no-one witnessed the car being crushed* nor the men getting thrown into the water. (* - I'm not sure why no-one got anything for crushing the car, it's not like there was anyone else in the town with a tank or bradley that night. At least the patrol commander should have gotten a reprimand or something..) There is now an investigation (by that military branch that does that kind of stuff), solely because the western media started asking questions.

                      The theory is that the patrol was just too lazy to take them men all the way to the detention area, as it was near the end of their patrol and out of their way wrt their base of operations. Throwing them into the water was probably not "malicious", but it did have very grave consequences.

                      Both cases sound like a bunch of young guys without a strong commander or firm orders "having fun".

                      I've read another account by a "westernized Iraqi" who wrote up what happened the one night that US forces searched their house. Apparently the two people doing repairs on their house during the day were from the Basra area, and there are actually some Muslims in Basra who have african heritage. Someone reported to the US forces that "meetings of African Al-qaida" were happening in the house. The search went well and the unit commander and medic seemed nice enough. However while the family was outside under guard, they saw something odd. A soldier came out and emptied his canteen into the flowerbed, then asked the medic for his canteen. No-one could figure out what it was about, but latter they found one of their bottles of Whiskey was opened and empty.

                      ** You know what they say, experienced non-coms are the backbones of Armies. They are responsible for teaching, leading, and providing a role model. Still, even the nicest Western country has some low level of crime, and that doesn't go away just because you take a sub-set of the country and put them in uniform.

                      Still, we're a heck of a lot better off than 100 years ago. I saw in a new documentary that in fact as many as 500 people were shot by the troops who had "shoot to kill" orders guarding San-Francisco from looters after the big 1906 earthquake. As little as 5-10 years ago we thought that way less than 100 were shot, but it seems the numbers were "fudged" by the city, and more importantly no-one did a proper count and so the dead just melted into the general aftermath. In fact a careful analysis of records now shows that a much larger number of people died in the 1906 quake and fire than was ever reported before, something like over 1500! (So new I can't find any links - it was on a non-conspiracy-theory discovery channel documentary)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Don't Loot!

                        All I know is that was an obviously biased story, so the army men were made out to look like jackasses. If I were to guess, I'd say it was a combination of three things:

                        1) Young soldiers acting a little stupid in front of a camera.

                        2) A "journalist" acting predictably irresponsible.

                        3) Iraqi's caught somewhere in the middle.


                        Oh, and yes, things do look cool squished underneath a tank.


                        edit - I also just realized that the video was from the early stages of the war. The tank crews had probably not even switched over from assaulters to policing yet.
                        Last edited by H-Hour; 03-10-2004, 04:06 PM.
                        [volun]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Don't Loot!

                          Enjoy the whole show
                          http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/truth/

                          And it's good to see it doesn't just digress here.....
                          http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...link~mode=flat
                          Last edited by Benny_; 03-10-2004, 06:04 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Don't Loot!

                            Originally posted by Apophis
                            Well. I'm not sure what to think. I know what I see, and I know what I hear people claim. But the only thing I know for sure is a tank drove over a car. The commentary about the car being a cab and the guy's liveleyhood isn't something I have any reason to believe. The cameraman didn't interview the guy, nor was any footage taken of the distressed cab driver.

                            where ia gree with you and maybe the guy didnt speak to him. etc etc, it is not law and order. the point of going to war as we all know by now was to replace a tyrant and to find the illusive weapons of mass destruction.

                            lets not start another debate over the wmd's because that is exhausted. but removing an evil tyrant means you denounce what the man done. and i am sorry but it was a very extreme decision to take over strealing wood. the man had not committed a crime of mass proportions. he also in no way threatened the safety or lives of any of the troops or general public surrounding them. now considering we are restoring the law and order to the country and putting in place a democratic system with a judiciary etc etc. where was this mans rioght to be innocent until proven quilty in a court of law.

                            well you may say that it wasnt possible at the time. i would agree there, but who gave gi blogs the right or the jurasdiction to commit an act as this. i bet it came from no kind of hierarchy. the shooting it with pistols really illustrated the reason for crushing the car for a game.

                            i would also add that the climate in Iraq at the moment woth people still fighting against the coalition troops, this act is not goign to make friends and is going to reinforce ideas that the troops are not there for the benifit of iraq.

                            if it is true that the guy was a cabbie and he had resorted to breaking the law with tanks rolling the streets it is odvious he needs capital. taking away his main earning vehicle therefore is only going to drive the man to more despirate measures.

                            i am totally with the war all the way, but our troops should be setting the example not displaying idiocy of the highest level.


                            www.TeamElement.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Don't Loot!

                              Let me first say that I don't know enough about the situation in the video to really form a conclusive opinion. It certainly looks pretty crappy, but there could very easily be more to the situation that would justify the actions taken.

                              That said, let me say that Iraq is in a very unique state of turmoil. They have a brand new police force, a recently freed population and three major cultural groups that are now living without the iron fist hovering over them.

                              I don't know what kind of justice system they had set up when the video was taken, but if this was still during, or soon after, the combat portion of the war, then soldiers unfortunately probably had to act like Judge Dredd: judge, jury and executioner. They were probably told to use their best judgement and to mete out justice whenever necessary to send a message and stop the looting. Soldiers are NOT police. And they do a terrible job of filling in as such...
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