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  • Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

    Yea, everybody is sick of the Valerie Plame story. This link is one that some will dismiss out of hand and others will get the irony. Check through it and make your own opinions.

    http://newsbusters.org/stories/matth...mplicated.html

    Lucky Shot

  • #2
    Re: Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

    Unfortunately this won't change anyone's opinion. All the evidence we have now shows that Bush didn't lie about WMDs, and he didn't expose a CIA agent to try cover up those non-existent lies. But it matters not to those that still believe it.
    New to TG?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

      The fun part though is not just the news that "it wasnt Rove or Libby", but the news that "Prosecutor Fitzgerald KNEW it wasn't Rove or Libby and kept on hounding them for two YEARS after finding out." Remember Armitage was one of Fitzgerald's primary sources for the Investigation of Rove and Libby, so its pretty incredible to suppose that Fitzgerald actually thought Rove or Libby might still be real candidates for suspicion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

        Originally posted by USN_Squid View Post
        Unfortunately this won't change anyone's opinion. All the evidence we have now shows that Bush didn't lie about WMDs, and he didn't expose a CIA agent to try cover up those non-existent lies. But it matters not to those that still believe it.
        And it matters not to those who never believed it.

        This, and the other "facts" surrounding the Plame incident just show one thing. Shenanigans surround the whole Iraq war.

        Bush may have not lied but he was wrong. He decided to invade a country and kill innocents*, decreased the availability of our military, and decreased the standing of our country on the world stage.

        His administration is responsible for the where we stand in the Iraq war.

        If you think we are doing good there then Bush et al deserve accolades. If you believe we are doing poorly then they are to blame.

        I think the next Presidential election cycle is going to be difficult and critical. Bush leaves much to be desired. Yea, he has gonads the size of watermelons and he does what he believes is right. That IS commendable. But the incompetence and decision making leaves allot to be desired.

        Even if the decision to go into Iraq was the correct one, the execution is piss poor. I don't think the excuse that "it is difficult" suffices. Of course it is difficult. It would be difficult no matter what country was invaded. Doing this in the middle east would, of course, make it even more so.

        Knowing this difficulty you would think an actual, flexible, plan would be had. And maybe they had one. But based on what was said pre war I have no evidence of this. The only thing that happened as expected was the easy military victory**. Most the other predictions never happened.

        Of course the options seem to be limited. The democrats are simply disorganized. The loudest voices only offer criticism. Many of those voices supported the initial invasion. Personally they might have opposed it but politically and publicly they said "yes". No watermelons for them and that sucks. Raisons they do have.

        It is obvious that we cannot simply pull out. All those silly democrats that say we can are idiots. Idiots or simply looking for a win due to the competitors failures.

        But the country really needs more than that. (I do not think the country deserves anything more than what it has.)

        Personally I am waiting for a somebody to step up and present a clear vision for our country. That and the ability to achieve that vision.

        Who is that?


        *Yes, he decided to kill innocents. If you decide to invade a country then you make that decision and are responsible for it.


        **The military is the only thing saving Bush's butt right now. They have done things that are simply amazing. And their accomplishments are in spite of Bush, not because of it.
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
          And it matters not to those who never believed it.

          This, and the other "facts" surrounding the Plame incident just show one thing. Shenanigans surround the whole Iraq war.

          Bush may have not lied but he was wrong. He decided to invade a country and kill innocents*, decreased the availability of our military, and decreased the standing of our country on the world stage.

          His administration is responsible for the where we stand in the Iraq war.

          If you think we are doing good there then Bush et al deserve accolades. If you believe we are doing poorly then they are to blame.

          I think the next Presidential election cycle is going to be difficult and critical. Bush leaves much to be desired. Yea, he has gonads the size of watermelons and he does what he believes is right. That IS commendable. But the incompetence and decision making leaves allot to be desired.

          Even if the decision to go into Iraq was the correct one, the execution is piss poor. I don't think the excuse that "it is difficult" suffices. Of course it is difficult. It would be difficult no matter what country was invaded. Doing this in the middle east would, of course, make it even more so.

          Knowing this difficulty you would think an actual, flexible, plan would be had. And maybe they had one. But based on what was said pre war I have no evidence of this. The only thing that happened as expected was the easy military victory**. Most the other predictions never happened.

          Of course the options seem to be limited. The democrats are simply disorganized. The loudest voices only offer criticism. Many of those voices supported the initial invasion. Personally they might have opposed it but politically and publicly they said "yes". No watermelons for them and that sucks. Raisons they do have.

          It is obvious that we cannot simply pull out. All those silly democrats that say we can are idiots. Idiots or simply looking for a win due to the competitors failures.

          But the country really needs more than that. (I do not think the country deserves anything more than what it has.)

          Personally I am waiting for a somebody to step up and present a clear vision for our country. That and the ability to achieve that vision.

          Who is that?


          *Yes, he decided to kill innocents. If you decide to invade a country then you make that decision and are responsible for it.


          **The military is the only thing saving Bush's butt right now. They have done things that are simply amazing. And their accomplishments are in spite of Bush, not because of it.

          I'm sorry but this is nothing we haven't heard. Everyone jumps all over this administration but has never given a plan or anything that would be actually feasible. And you are right it is his actions that have gotten Iraq where it is now, but its the media that has told us what they want. We never hear stories about those hundreds of troops who are thanked and helped every single day in that country. Because of them the Iraqis can actually fight for their future.

          Dont get me wrong, ive questioned the actions of our leaders, but we voted him in so we have to deal with it. Make your opinions heard in the polls. Just think it could have been Gore or Kerry.

          And don't give this crap about killing innocents, Saddam has been doing it for Decades, the ones that have died in this operation are minor compared to him and his tyrannic regime. And yes many have died for this cause and more will, but we started this and we HAVE to finish it.

          I guess until the majority of muslims step up and shut up those that are causing the problems the more america will be hated.

          and finally its not like the UN is gonna ever do anything.

          back on topic.....
          that sounds like a good idea trooper.
          -Vulcan

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Chris Mathews: Valerie Plame

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            I'm sorry but this is nothing we haven't heard. Everyone jumps all over this administration but has never given a plan or anything that would be actually feasible. And you are right it is his actions that have gotten Iraq where it is now, but its the media that has told us what they want. We never hear stories about those hundreds of troops who are thanked and helped every single day in that country. Because of them the Iraqis can actually fight for their future.
            They could have fought for their future, and they did, before we invaded. A people cannot be made free, they must make themselves free. We can help them (as the French helped us during our fight, isn't that sweet) but we cannot be their knights in shining armor.

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            Dont get me wrong, ive questioned the actions of our leaders, but we voted him in so we have to deal with it. Make your opinions heard in the polls. Just think it could have been Gore or Kerry.
            Yea. It could have been worse or it might have been better under either of those. There is no way to know.

            And we do have to deal with it. But we can also learn from the mistakes made, discuss those mistakes and try and avoid them in the future.

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            And don't give this crap about killing innocents, Saddam has been doing it for Decades, the ones that have died in this operation are minor compared to him and his tyrannic regime. And yes many have died for this cause and more will, but we started this and we HAVE to finish it.
            It isn't crap. He made the decision that would cause many innocents to die by American hands. The fact Saddam killed his own is not the reason we invaded Iraq. We didn't invade when he killed his people in the 80's. We didn't dispose of him in the first gulf war even though we knew he would continue killing his own people. We didn't go into Sudan or Rwanda even though we knew that massive killing of people was happening.

            We do not invade countries to save others. We invade countries to protect our interests. If that happens to involve saving humans so be it. It is nice to be able to say "we come to help you". But it is not necessary nor sufficient. Anybody that says different is attempting to manipulate.

            So I don't understand why so many use the "Saddam is evil" to justify our invasion. That has rarely been a reason for any large scale military involvement. And it was not this time. Saddam is not as evil as Kim or others. And logically it makes no sense. I would not want a president that sent our troops into every region where a leader was abusing his power.

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            I guess until the majority of muslims step up and shut up those that are causing the problems the more America will be hated.
            We are hated by some of them for many reasons. One of the major ones is our friendship and support of Israel. Another, smaller one, is that we are primarily Christian. Some Muslims hate us because "our women do not know their place". We drink. We have porn. We have treated them as a source of oil and nothing else for years.

            They don't like us because of our actions. I think some of our actions are non of their business. If I want to watch porn and drink a beer, by god I will and they can kiss my butt.

            I don't think those leading the terrorists care about my beer and porn habit, however. They do use my beer and porn habit to incite the common Muslim into killing themselves and as many of us beer drinking porn watchers as possible. Why the terrorist leaders want us dead I do not understand fully. Personally I think it boils down to nationalism, internal power struggles and regional competition. We are messing in their business so we become a target. Not right but what do you expect? Date a girl from the trailer park and you will end up on Jerry Springer. That is life.

            Some of our actions I think we could moderate. (Taking them for granted or treating them as the trash in the way of our oil. Overthrowing their governments. Supplying weapons to evil leaders that have rape rooms and gas their own people. Those kinds of things.)

            And as far as Israel goes, well I have no idea. That seems like a problem without a solution. But that too is partly the fault of an ignorant and arrogant west.

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            and finally its not like the UN is gonna ever do anything.
            back on topic.....
            We often act like the UN is some alien force from another galaxy. It isn't. America is a major force in the UN but we don't control it. That bothers many. You are correct that it isn't the answer to all the problems we face. It is part of the answer for many of the problems. A good leader uses all the assets available to them. The UN can be an asset. But like many things it can also be a thorn. A good leader should be able to deal with it and avoid the thorn while using it when appropriate.

            This is on topic by the way. The outing of Plame is only significant because of it's tie into the invasion. If not for the invasion this never would have been story. It is only brought up because it serves political purposes. People with power either want to avoid what happened or use it.
            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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