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The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

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  • The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

    http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474

    Definitely the sort of speech to inspire several murders and counting. Read every boring line and go blow something up. You know, for God.

  • #2
    Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

    The contrast between the speech and it's critic's responses are enlightening. Just a pun, not ironic.

    I think this section is much more interesting than the headlines most media are using to cause death threats, shootings and insults:

    "The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application.

    While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them. We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons. In this sense theology rightly belongs in the university and within the wide-ranging dialogue of sciences, not merely as a historical discipline and one of the human sciences, but precisely as theology, as inquiry into the rationality of faith.

    Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today. In the Western world it is widely held that only positivistic reason and the forms of philosophy based on it are universally valid. Yet the world’s profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions. A reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering into the dialogue of cultures. At the same time, as I have attempted to show, modern scientific reason with its intrinsically Platonic element bears within itself a question which points beyond itself and beyond the possibilities of its methodology. "
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    • #3
      Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

      You know what the best part is?

      The Pope said nothing that wasn't absolutely correct.

      1. Violence is incompatible with religious and moral conviction (what does that mean for VIRTUAL violence?).

      2. Much of the intervening period between the middle ages and today have been dedicated to the truimph or rationality over the divine, as far as man's understanding of the world and his place in it are concerned, but the more we seek answers, the more the divine seems to play a role.

      3. Going forward, a marriage of divine understanding and human reason must occur if we are to truly understand the divine, and reconcile the different visions of what the divine is.

      Of course, none of that will happen if people are calling out death threats on people that appeal to reason.

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      • #4
        Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

        Originally posted by Mateo View Post
        You know what the best part is?

        The Pope said nothing that wasn't absolutely correct.

        1. Violence is incompatible with religious and moral conviction (what does that mean for VIRTUAL violence?).

        I've wrestled this question quite a few times...good observation
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        • #5
          Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

          Originally posted by Grunt 70 View Post
          I've wrestled this question quite a few times...good observation

          As a broad statement I think this is correct. If it is applied to violence in the name of one's religion = especially true.

          However, violence can be perpetrated by those of religious and moral convictions and still be compatable with those religions as long as it is not in the name of that religion.

          Layman; Killing someone for your religion = bad
          Being someone of religious and moral conviction and being in a place where killing someone is necessary for survival of self and/or others = okie dokie.

          Not trying to split hairs, just putting in some of my own Pickle Juice :icon_eek:
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          • #6
            Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

            1. Violence is incompatible with religious and moral conviction (what does that mean for VIRTUAL violence?).
            Although our games on this community are violent (or depict violence) no one gets harmed. Fighting and killing is in our (mostly male) genes [check out 'Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence'] and living it out in a virtual setting relieves that urge. So it's all good, right?

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            • #7
              Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

              Originally posted by marstein View Post
              Although our games on this community are violent (or depict violence) no one gets harmed. Fighting and killing is in our (mostly male) genes [check out 'Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence'] and living it out in a virtual setting relieves that urge. So it's all good, right?
              See, I'd like to think that, but I wonder if that is self-serving...a rationalization for my gaming addiction? If you look at it from strict Catholic POV, isn't thinking about a sin still a sin, even if you do not act on it?

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              • #8
                Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                Let's imagine a scenario where the equivalent to the pope in the Muslim faith made a similar statement saying "Show me just what Jesus brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

                I believe that statement would probably not be warmly welcomed by Christians. I'm reasonably certain many would conclude it's another example of the bias in the Muslim religion towards other faiths. Ironically, the same crowd who is condemning the reaction to the Pope's speech would condemn the speech given by his Muslim counterpart!

                Was the Pope speech taken out of context? Perhaps. Did he show remorse? It appears. It just seems to me that for a Pope to lecture another faith about violence and the need for tolerance and at the same time not acknowledge his own faith's long sorid history seems to be a bit of a religious double standard.
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                • #9
                  Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                  Dude, I read stories of some jackass or another making those sorts of statements every day. I'm not blowing anyone up or rioting in the street with my pals.

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                  • #10
                    Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                    Originally posted by Bommando
                    Maybe you don't, but others do. There has been all sorts of anti-Muslim violence and sentiment in a lot of communities. The majority are being made to feel guilty for the actions of a few. It's snide generalisations like yours which incite people to pigeon-hole the entire religion.

                    What about select pro-lifers bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors who are trying to help people?

                    People from all walks of life and all religions overreact all the time. We don't need to call out the religion, we need to call out the individuals who don't know how to show restraint.
                    You're right that christians have their share of wacko individuals, but you're wrong to imply that the organized islamic religion is not at fault here. Mainstream christian churches aren't telling their members to go out and blow up abortion clinics or to murder doctors. The equivalent can not be said for muslim mosques.
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                    • #11
                      Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                      Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                      You're right that christians have their share of wacko individuals, but you're wrong to imply that the organized islamic religion is not at fault here. Mainstream christian churches aren't telling their members to go out and blow up abortion clinics or to murder doctors. The equivalent can not be said for muslim mosques.
                      Why can't the same be said about Muslim mosques? What proof do we have that mainstream Muslim mosques are instructing their members to commit violence against Christians?
                      |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
                      "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
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                      • #12
                        Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                        The moral relativism here is astonishing. More people have been killed by radical Islam this year than in the entire period of the Spanish inquisitions, much less a few scattered abortion clinics more than a decade ago.

                        I believe this statement to be just slightly more inflamatory than quoting a conversation to make a point:

                        A HARDLINE cleric linked to Somalia's powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.

                        Link


                        EDIT:
                        I wonder what would happen if the tables were turned when this happened? link
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                        • #13
                          Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                          Moral relativism is good.

                          I'm not god, I can't know "the mind of god" (if there even is such a thing). So I have to go by my own actions and beliefs as they relate to the known "revelations" about God. Islam says this, Christianity another, Judaism something else.

                          Hell, Buddhists don't actually discount God either, they sidestep the whole question by saying that belief in God is not necessary to become enlightened (that's the short course version).

                          Who's to say who is right?

                          Now, there will be someone to give an answer, saying that they are right...you know, the most interesting thing is that everyone believes that they have the mainline to God.

                          To my mind, that means that you need to understand where people are coming from, what their cultural framework is, in order to understand their concept of the divine.

                          I find it funny that Islamic fundamentalists yell about a historical fact of Mohammed as sacrilege, while Christ is a mere prohpet in the Koran, not the son of God. I don't see anyone saying "Kill the muslim's because they don't accept Jesus as the Son!" although I have to admit, up here in New England, we take awhile to get all lathered up.

                          I do recall, however, that we have our own extremists here...I remember this Church I went to with an family acquaintance in Baltimore. They all showed up to church in fatigues, and called themselves the Sword of Christ or some crap like that. The sermon was pretty much what you would expect of some radical right muslim clearic to say, only if you substituted God for Allah....

                          So yeah, I'm sort of proud of the people here in this forums....a little more walking in each other's shoes is probably a good thing.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                            Both the bible and Koran have excerpts that preach violence, though most of them are probably metaphoric and would likely be viewed in the literal sense by those with less education. The middle east in general has lower education levels than the christian dominated west. I think thats a large part why theres more violence in Islam than there is in Christianity at the moment. The west had little education back in the 1200s, and Christians were on a tear in the crusades then.

                            Instead of violence, Christian radicals are smarter about their hatred and wont use violence so much as they will use deep rooted bigotry. Hating gays, generally shunning women, etc etc. Of course thats not as bad as the violence going on in the middle east, but its not to say that there isnt an extremist Christian wing.

                            I know someones going to say "Hey! Im a Christian and i dont hate gays!". Im sure you dont. But im talking about the radical Christians, just like people in this thread are talking about the radical muslims creating all the violence over there. Maybe im ignorant (likely ;)), but it seems like the degree of violence/hatred stems from a lack of education rather than the religion itself being inherently evil.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The (latest) long boring speech that got Islam all a-tizzy

                              I am deeply offended, I never have and never will shun Women.......
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