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Time to get real, America!

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  • Time to get real, America!

    Below is opinion only and subject to disagreement and debate. I welcome a good debate... but I make it a practice to think before I post, and not to personally attack any one individual. I will debate all you want, but when it simply becomes an attack of words, or no longer a fruitful conversation, I simply ignore the thread. So debate me, re-buttal me, but don't insult me, and I'll do the same.

    It's time to say who the real enemies are on the war on terror, and take steps to stop it now.

    Muslim terrorist have been attacking us for alot longer then 5 years, but it's come to the foreground on Sept. 11th, just over 5 years ago.

    You see 5 years ago, they hit us hard, we took notice then went back to arguing and disagreeing politically, financially, and as a community. We're back to enjoying the good life here in America, and denying that were in any danger.

    The majority of Americas don't take this war seriously, part of the problem is identifying the enemy. You see in WW2 it was the Nazi's and the Japs, (along with a few others), in Korea it was the North and China, and in Vietnam it was, well the North and China/Russia.) But in todays war, were fighting a global war on terror, what does that mean? Terrorism isn't an enemy, Terrorism is a tactic in which people attack other people, usually defenseless people, for fear and to intimidate and to exert there political/religious beliefs. How the heck do you fight that?

    I personally have alot of concerns and questions about our 5 year war on terror, but the biggest concern is that we still can't come out and say who were fighting.

    Many Americans don't take this war seriously because out political leaders won't come out and say who were fighting.

    After the recent arrest of young Muslim men in England who were plotting to blow up planes as they came into America, An angry President Bush labeled the enemy islamicfacists. This created a firestorm within the Muslim communities, and Bush retracted his words and apologized.

    This is the same president that ran around saying Islam is religion of peace, all to keep it politically correct years before.

    Now I know there are many peace loving Muslims in the world, but lets not confuse Islam with Buddhism, or any other religion.

    Conquest and enslavement of infidels (thats us folks) is a constant theme in Muslim history. And it's time Americans and our leaders stopped pussy footing around with this.

    Having a name for our enemy is the first step to finally winning this war.

    Step two is to start taking the enemy more seriously and defend our homeland. That means protecting our borders better and to stop allowing the enemy in.

    Did you know that after 9/11 there is a record number of Chechen's (Russian Muslims) immigrating into the US? even after the Beslan school siege.
    If you think about that too long, it will keep you up at night.

    I know as Americans we have like a national guilt about racism and racial profiling, but we need to control who's flying into this country.

    IMO, Anyone flying in or around our country from a major Islamic nation should have a background check done, and have a pre-screening before coming close to America.

    When I flew up to New York for my grandfathers funeral, I flew alone and only with one carry on bag (was only staying 2 days), understandably I was searched and questioned real good, but then I found out it wasn't because I was alone or only carried one bag, because 7 people later an old causation lady got the same treatment as me.
    To keep it fair they only took every 7th person for a detailed search and interview. (There was no Muslims on my plane, but I had heard that Muslim men, because they weren't 7th in line were not searched or interviewed.) This is wrong, common sense needs to be used by all to fight this war on terror.

    Back to our borders, it's a known fact that terrorist are getting into this country from Canada and Mexico, and it's time to fix these border problems.

    Time to wake up my fellow Americans, open your eyes and look at the big picture. It's not about Bush, or the war in Iraq, thats for another discussion. it's about protecting our selfs and stop being so damn politically correct.
    Magnum |TG-18th|

    We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.

  • #2
    Re: Time to get real, America!

    I don't know where to begin with your letter. You seem to speak out of concern for our nation and those here. But I cannot condone the racist policies you seem to want to implement.

    Lets think back to world war 2. We put japanese people in camps. Out of fear and along the same logic you are using to search every muslim. What's next? Do we fit them with tracking devices? Hell, we're already arresting a bunch of them and puting them in an offshore prison without charge and indefinitely. Do human rights extend to all, or can we afford to pick and choose?

    Back, though, to world war 2. We did nothing to the germans in our country. Sure, some probably got some looks, and were outcast in their community, but at no time did we put them in camps. See, you say because they look like they are islamic, they should be searched on airplanes, and tracked for our safety. Sir, there are plenty of people who are Islamic in this country who have done no wrong, and are, in fact, citizens of the US.

    So what about those coming in from other countries, and your idea of background checks on them all. Well, first let me say that I agree we need more border security. All of those canadians just trouncing in like they own the place is unacceptable! We will not yield, eh? But, when you propose doing a background check you create a diplomatic and logistical nightmare. First, who does these background checks and how? My guess, is yet another oversized government agency... and if it's the cia or fbi, do you think that spreading our resources that thin is going to fly in their book? Second, we got enough slack when we said that everyone coming in had to be fingerprinted. When we made treaties with countries, we agreed to honor their passports for open travel in our nation (with restrictions and limitations of course). Something like the program you're proposing would have implications for all american's travelling abroad.

    The percentage of islamic people who wish harm upon us is small in comparison to their population. And to say that they have a violent history, I think you should look at the glass house you're standing in before saying that. Muslims are not more violent then christians. Just look at the crusades, the 100 year war, and perhaps every other war since that has invoked the name of god being on one side or the other. Hell, most of the islamic fighting was with other sects of islam. Catholics and protestants are no different. I take offense to your charecterization of entire group of people, based solely on the way they prey.

    It is this kind of fear and rationalization of the restriction of peoples rights based upon what they look like, who there parents were, who they worship, etc. that this country must fight. The enemy in the war on terror is hatred. The deep seeded hatred that our actions throughout the world has sparked in a motivated group that wants simply to destroy the free lifestyle that we embrace and that so many of their people embrace too. I am married to an iranian, who was born in this country, and whose father fled after the revolution in the 70s. Iran, Iraq, and the region are full of people who simply want to live their life and create a better situation for their children. When Omi(my wife)'s grandparents decide to come to this country to visit their great-grandchildren (through way of canada because there are no direct trips), I don't want them to be treated as the enemy. Because they aren't, they work on an orchard.

    We cannot sacrifice our lifestyle and then say we've defeated the threat. We cannot give away those rights which we wrote into our constitution because the guy sitting next to you on the plane is named Muhammed. It's tantamount to puting blacks in the back of the bus. Dress it up however you want, it's still fear-driven racism, and it sickens me.
    |TG-Irr| Dfg872


    • #3
      Re: Time to get real, America!

      The purpose of my opinion is to show how political correctness gets in the way of common scene. No, I do not condone grabbing all the Muslims in the US and putting them in concentration camps. (your reading to much into my opinion.)

      But the muslin faith teaches and says that all non-Muslims are infidels and should be beheaded and/or enslaved... thats taught even today, what you say about the catholic religion is correct, hundreds of years ago, but the teachings now are peace, brotherhood and openness.

      All I was saying is call a spade a spade, use common scene when fighting terrorism, and protect/defend our borders.

      You and someone else in another thread hints at caving in, taking rights from the Constitution, even old Ben rolling over in his grave... true 225 years ago, but times have changed and common scene needs to lead to proper changes in laws and actions.

      You have to rule and provide correct laws for the time, not keep living on laws made 225 years ago...if you want America to survive.
      Magnum |TG-18th|

      We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


      • #4
        Re: Time to get real, America!

        Peace, brotherhood, openess? Do you see the same christians that I do? Granted there are some christians that are tolerent of others, but last I checked, the church hasn't been known for it's record on open-mindedness. And I don't mean back in the days of the crusades, I merely used that as one of the examples of christian violence. The bombing of abortion clinics, the hate towards homosexuals, this recent obsession of southern fundamentalist christians with the rapture. Peace, brotherhood, and openess indeed.

        We do live with laws for the times, and time and time again, the courts have decided that these rights laid out in the constitution apply even today. If we truly wanted to ammend these laws, the process exists to do it. And the reason these rights have stayed in place is not because of a misguided sense of nostalgia for our colonial days, but, rather, that these rights remain a pretty good way of keeping our society a free and open one. One where I can speak my mind, and where others of like mind can come, seeking a better life.

        Now, I don't think we should be reading people miranda rights on the battlefield, but I don't think we should be puting electrodes on their testicles either. I also wasn't saying you wanted to make muslim interrnment camps, but that your logic is the same used to justify them, and if followed, that would be an eventual end of the slippery slope.

        I'm all for common sense. But before using that phrase, might we define what "common sense" is? You speak about defining our enemy. Is it the saudi's, whos oppressive societal restrictions rival the taliban? Is it the iraqi's? It is a small, radicallized pseudo-religious group that is bent on causing as much damage to those who they see causing an affront to islam. They are the equivilant to the people in this country willing to blow up an abortion clinic to stop abortions. All religions have histories of violent text that is taught to this day. The jewish, christian , and islamic text has been used to justify violence and continues to. The jews use their text to justify their claim on the land of Israel, displacing the residents who had been there for centuries. Then the muslims use their text to fight against the Jews who took their land. The christians in Northern Ireland were fighting each other until the late 90s, and it isn't really settled there.

        And, the muslims treated non-believers quite well in history. If you look at the ottoman empire the only thing that was done to non-believers was a tax. Thats right... a tax... they weren't beheaded or forced to convert or tortured, but taxed and allowed to practice their faith. Pretty progressive for the 11th century, if you ask me.

        I'm not saying the borders should be unprotected, but keep in mind that protecting the borders does not mean closing them. As for living on 225 year old laws, well, perhaps that whole second ammendment thing should be updated too. After all, it can hardly be argued that it's needed now. Why isn't it? Because enough people still believe that these rights are needed and important to our society. I don't fight for rights because I think that it is what our forefathers wanted, but because their ideas and words ring true as much today, as they did then. We are equal under the law, and just because our enemy happens to worship one way, does not mean we can group everyone who worships that way into a set of people with restricted rights.
        |TG-Irr| Dfg872


        • #5
          Re: Time to get real, America!

          Yeah well the day that a Christian nutbar blows up 3000 people in another country I'll join the effort to crush his radical movement. I'm a little tired of this silly linkage between random jackasses killing 4 people every 5 years to the rampant murder being committed in the name of Islam.

          For one thing, when a radical Christian commits murder, he is immediately excoriated and hunted by all available resources.
          Last edited by leejo; 09-29-2006, 09:47 PM.


          • #6
            Re: Time to get real, America!

            Originally posted by leejo View Post
            Yeah well the day that a Christian nutbar blows up 3000 people in another country I'll join the effort to crush his radical movement. I'm a little tired of this silly linkage between random jackasses killing 4 people every 5 years to the rampant murder being committed in the name of Islam.

            For one thing, when a radical Christian commits murder, he is immediately excoriated and hunted by all available resources.
            No you won't Leejo, because you are blind the the reality of the Church: since 1300AD, we have done nothing but wage war against other countries and civilizations under the pretext or under the banner of the right of Christians. Three Crusades, the First and Second World Wars, in every conflict, we have marched into death for God and Country.

            You will just rationalize it as "the bastards had it coming" which is just what radical Islam says about us.

            It's real easy to try to change the world via a gaming forum in some backwater of the internet. Blind to fact, people can cast any sort of aspersion they want, even hypoctirical ones, and call themselves just.


            • #7
              Re: Time to get real, America!

              I'm not trying to insult anyone, but the idea that Muslims native thinking is to destroy infidels to spread Islam is very naive. The Coran is an ancient book. And defiantly should not be interpreted by westerners. We have enough trouble interpreting the Bible. I think it's obvious to everyone that Muslims think differently then we do.
              I am also tired of people referring to "terrorists" as a gang of moronic fanatics who only want to spread fear and destruction. That is coming from a very egocentric American point of view.
              Lets call them what they are. They are a well organized, very well funded, motivated political party. We can call it Al Qaeda for now. They are after what every party in the world is after. Money, Power and Land. We are flying under the democracy moniker and they are flying under the Jihad moniker. Every army must take some moral high ground to fight under. To assume that every Muslim is part of the Jihad movement is like saying every Caucasian is KKK. It's just ridiculous.
              Unfortunately, Al Quada was a very small group before we went into Iraq. I think in the worlds eyes going into Afghanistan to hunt Al-Quada was justified. Even the peace loving Dali Lama was for it. But the US in Iraq has fueled their Jihad movement like Osama never could have done by himself. It really made us look like opportunists. And has created the moral high ground Al Quada was looking to propel their Jihad party. I think it was the worst possible thing the US could have done outside of blowing up Mecca.

              Lets face it. If someone wanted to blowup your house; they could. You can't defend against that. Whether you believe it or not, you are relying on the inherent goodness of people not to do it. I believe people all over the world are inherently good. There is always going to be a few that will do terrible things to get what they want. Don't let them make you crazy.
              Anyone who looks at the Tex/Mex boarder can see the department of homeland security isn't doing squat and is nothing but a money making, fear mongering sham. Who can argue that our boarder is the number one security threat. I'm sure half a trillion $$$ spent in Iraq could have done something about that. If we don't secure our own country, how are we supposed to secure Iraq? It makes me think maybe our government doesn't think Al Quada is such a big threat. Maybe the war isn't about security at all.


              • #8
                Re: Time to get real, America!

                Originally posted by leejo View Post
                Yeah well the day that a Christian nutbar blows up 3000 people in another country I'll join the effort to crush his radical movement.
                Is 40,000 enough? Oh wait, that doesn't count because...... well... I don't know why... IT'S THE TUURESTS!

                For one thing, when a radical Christian commits murder, he is immediately excoriated and hunted by all available resources.
                But torture is perfectly acceptable...


                • #9
                  Re: Time to get real, America!

                  It's fairly obvious that both Christianity and Islam are militant religions. What I mean is that both regard as virtuous agressive support of their core beliefs. Christianity tells us to love each other, as well as God, passionately. So, when something theatens them, the appropriate response is agressive, not passive. When dealing with bad people, the appropriate repsponse is agressive, not passive. The same goes for Islam. Compare these two religions to Buddhism, a non-militant religion in this sense. I take it Buddhists look upon bad people with a sort of detatched pity.

                  This accounts for the amount of violence that both of those religions has produced. I'm sure there have been violent Buddhists somewhere--just not a lot of them. Christianity does not teach violence, it seems. Violence happens when you have Christians who are over agressive or don't understand the tenents of the religon. Certainly, it seems from what's said of Jesus' nature, Jesus wouldn't condone the Crusades. This is just what happens what you have a violent Buddhist. It's not that the religion preaches violence, it's that people do violence in the name of the religion.

                  Now, what's the difference between doing violence in the name of a religion and doing violence because the religion preaches violence? I take it there's a sigificant difference. From what I can tell, it's not that radical Islam preaches violence. That's the standard teaching. Indeed, it's written in Muslim holy texts. Just like it's written that, in war, it is morally permissible to take women as sex slaves, and if they were married their marriage is annulled by the mere fact that they were captured. This is what Muhammad says in the qur'an. There are also many passages about murdering non-believers. There's no twisting the reading of the texts here. This is just how the most plausible reading goes. There's no reason to think Muhammad is speaking metaphorically, and it he were it's certainly not clear what the metaphor is about. Nothing justifying the crusades is written in the bible--at least not on any plausible reading of the bible.

                  So, even if you think that Christianity has historically been the cause of many more immoral deaths, there seems to be a real difference between it and Islam regarding what they teach their practitioners about violence. While we can account for those who aren't following the teachings of Christianity well by appeal to its militant nature, it seems those who follow the teachings of Islam well think it's permissible to do violence in the ways that we've seen.


                  • #10
                    Re: Time to get real, America!

                    The world has seen countless violent Buddhists. The sarin gas attacks in Tokyo's subway were carried out by Buddhist terrorists. Wars in Asia throughout the centuries are attributable to Buddhism just as wars in Europe are similarly attributable to Christianity and wars across Arabia attributable to Islam.

                    I'm personally inclined to blame 'people' more than the religion for violence - from Muslim extremists to Papally sanctioned Crusades. I suppose you could say that I view religion as more of a facilitator of violence, greasing the wheels of death, rather than the outright cause. I'm not especially firm in this position, but it seems to make sense given the similar patterns of violence which seem to perpetuate throughout human history regardless of race, religion, creed, and culture.
                    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."


                    • #11
                      Re: Time to get real, America!

                      The attacks of 9/11 weren't an attempt to destroy America. They were the equivalent of John Brown's assault on Harper's Ferry in an attempt to cause a slavery rebellion in the southern states in the U.S. What I mean by that is Bin Laden sees there is palpable fissure in the Muslim world between those that want to see the emergence of a new, devout, isolationist Caliphate (very few) and those that want to become more secular members of the global community. He despises the corrupt dictatorships in the middle east, and his head on assaults with those regimes ended in failure time and time again. By attacking U.S. embassies in Africa, then the U.S.S. Cole, then attacking inside the United States itself, his hope was that this would be the spark to unify the oppressed Muslims of those dictatorships (and kingdoms) to rise up and overthrow their crooked governments, which most people in the world correctly see as remaining in power due to support from the U.S. and other western powers. He was basically shoving a fist in the face of America and saying "Look what we can do! Now rise up and throw off the shackles of your nefarious rulers!". They didn't.

                      Instead the western world united, Afghanistan was invaded, the Taliban was overthrown but al Qaeda wasn't hunted as relentlessly as they should have been. The top leaders were able to escape, regroup, and reorganize.

                      Why weren't the troop commitments necessary for keeping the pressure up deployed to Afghanistan? Because the U.S. government needed those troops for the invasion of Iraq. The global community voiced their unified "Whaaaa...??!?" as we went in and caused the greatest destabilization in the Middle East in recent times.

                      The invasion of Iraq has essentially succeeded where 9/11 failed: the unifying of people in the world (particularly the Muslim world) to see America as the world's bully and attack her and the regimes she supports.

                      How this perception relates back to us is myriad.

                      The attacks of September 11 were met mostly with either apathy or sadness in the Muslim world, whereas today they might be met with more satisfaction.

                      America is a nation of immigrants, and many of our greatest citizens are first or second generation arrivals. Look at our universities: how many Chinese, Indians, etc., are working on their PHd's here? Starting to limit Muslims access to this country does indeed lead us down a slippery slope that we may never recover. Our current administration has enacted other measures from which we may never recover and this cannot be added to the list.

                      The reason people are willing to fly aircraft into skyscrapers is the same reason 15 year olds wearing dark trenchcoats will walk through their high schools blasting away at classmates with shotguns: alienation.

                      They feel their lives don't matter and here is a chance to make a statement. The 15 year old acting alone convinces himself that he can perform acts so horrific he can't be ignored. The pilot (or suicide bomber) is 99% of the time not an extremist, but feels the same as the previous case, but is taken under the wing of an extremist. Combine the frustration, alienation, and guilt of a "sinful" life with the reward of virgins waiting for you in heaven and you have yourself an endless supply of "smart bombs", my friend.

                      The 19 hijackers didn't become terrorists once inside the U.S. Why? Because as a nation of immigrants we tend to really be hospitable and welcoming of all cultures, even though this hasn't always been the case. Immigrants are quickly able to assimilate and become Americans, no matter their backgrounds or where they come from. If we start to alienate Muslims because of 9/11 we could begin to have homegrown terrorists like they're starting to experience in Europe. America is a nation of immigrants; European countries previously were not. Heck, the French Foreign Legion was established to keep foreigners out of Paris and off fighting their wars, and if those soldiers survived then and only then were they given French citizenship.

                      Post WWII there were population shifts in western europe, and after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 the desire to "have a better life" in a modern industrialized country has only accelerated. These population influxes cause all sorts of dilemnas, and not having a history of immigration many of these people may not feel particularly welcome. Then a local radical approaches them, says there's a different path chosen for only those as special as they are...

                      The way to protect ourselves starts with being welcoming, hospitable, and accepting of those that come to America. There will be those that will still feel the effects of not fitting in (who doesn't at some point?), but to greet Muslims with open hostility and racial profiling doesn't make them feel affectionate towards Americans and our way of life. Who wants to hurt people you genuinely care about?

                      There were at least two camps in the Muslim world before 2001, those that wanted to be more progressive and assimilate into the global community, and those that didn't. September 11th showed that the latter were in the minority since they didn't rise up an unite in a Muslim Caliphate. We're pushing more of them to radicalize by being in Iraq; let's not do the same by acting inhospitable to those that are here for the same reason most of your ancestors came to this nation: seeking a better life for themselves and their children.


                      • #12
                        Re: Time to get real, America!

                        The Bible is the most murderous book in the world. It makes the Coran look like the cat in the hat. If you think the Coran should be taken literally, then the bible should too to be fair.

                        Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

                        Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

                        Kill Witches

                        You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

                        Kill Homosexuals
                        "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

                        Kill Fortunetellers

                        A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

                        Death for Hitting Dad

                        Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

                        Death for Cursing Parents

                        1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

                        2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

                        Death for Adultery

                        If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

                        Death for Fornication

                        A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

                        Death to Followers of Other Religions

                        Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

                        Kill Nonbelievers

                        They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

                        Kill False Prophets

                        If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

                        Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

                        Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

                        Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

                        But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

                        Kill Followers of Other Religions.

                        1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

                        2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

                        Death for Blasphemy

                        One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

                        Kill False Prophets

                        1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

                        2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

                        Infidels and Gays Should Die

                        So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

                        Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

                        For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

                        Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

                        The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

                        2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

                        Kill Brats

                        From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

                        God Kills the Curious

                        And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

                        Killed by a Lion

                        Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

                        Killing the Good Samaritan

                        The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

                        When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

                        3) Murdering Children

                        Kill Sons of Sinners

                        Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

                        God Will Kill Children

                        The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

                        Kill Men, Women, and Children

                        "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

                        God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

                        And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

                        Kill Old Men and Young Women

                        "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

                        (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

                        God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

                        If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

                        More Rape and Baby Killing

                        Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

                        4) Miscellaneous Murders

                        More of Samson's Murders

                        (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

                        Peter Kills Two People

                        There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

                        Mass Murder

                        This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

                        You Have to Kill

                        Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

                        The Danites Kill the Next Town

                        But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

                        God Kills Some More

                        Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

                        God Promises More Killing

                        I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

                        The Angel of Death

                        My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

                        Destruction of Ai

                        Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

                        Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

                        Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

                        When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

                        Killing at Jericho

                        When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

                        God Kills an Extended Family

                        "You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

                        Mass Murder

                        The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

                        The Angel of Death

                        That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

                        Kill Your Neighbors

                        (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

                        Kill the Family of Sinners

                        And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)

                        Kill Followers of Other Religions

                        While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)


                        At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

                        Kill All of Babylon

                        "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

                        Micah Kills a Whole Town

                        Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)


                        • #13
                          Re: Time to get real, America!

                          Coridon... best reply yet, and eye opening, you may have just opened my eyes a little and changed my opinion some.

                          I still believe we need to protect our borders better and stop letting everyone in, but the heart of your post has won me over.
                          Magnum |TG-18th|

                          We stand between chaos and order, evil and good, despair and hope - we are the Thin Blue Line, and we will never be broken.


                          • #14
                            Re: Time to get real, America!

                            Good post Cor.

                            Al-Quada and Tali-Ban has many strengths and weaknesses.
                            Their biggest strength is their almost microscopic appearance. Their not mechanized; they have no uniform; they do not use heavy sophisticate and deadly vehicles like tanks and jets; they move in small details; they rule by fear, murder, intimidation, money [selling of Opium plants {they are having record harvest as of late!!}]; they blend in and speak the language of the indigenous people; and most importantly their motivation behind their actions is very idealistic [granted there are plenty of high ranking members that are most likely not religious but only hunger for power, prestige and pride but pretend they are religious.] Their Headquarters is located in a very fortified area with an adjacent sanctuary [Pakistan]. [Only the NVA and Victor Charles had it better (lush Jungle with Laos and Cambodia sanctuaries]; going up against the U.S. war machine takes a lot courage {and a lot of stupidity]. But i'll give them courage as a strong point.

                            With Chaos, hopelessness, alienation, they recruit numbers. In fact their moral goes up when there is more strife, more pressure, and chaos!!!
                            So when their faction is being attacked they are in their element, this is their strength. When fellow muslins are attacked (physically, emotionally and otherwise) they are more in their element.
                            With Jihad as their selling point for motivation and recruiting, they gain strength from anything that is broken down to their lowest common denominator, Us vs. them. Meaning, Islam verses other religions.

                            So what is their goal? Destroy America?
                            No, their goal is to exist.
                            With war and conflict they exist. With peace they wither and fad away.

                            Here is my overall take away point.
                            9/11 was to inflame the world and indeed the U.S.A. against the Tali Ban. Knowing the anti-Mulsim backlash would be severe; the Taliban simply lured the west into a fight and hoped for the best.

                            Another take away point is this :
                            The more the US and their allies on the war on terror talk negatively about Muslims, the more the US and their allies strengthen the enemies overall mission statement and motivation of this being a religious war.

                            Giving the enemy a face and ambiguously calling the enemy Muslim Fascist is ranked up there with Operation Iraqi Freedom in folly.
                            Operation Iraq freedom is truly a wet dream come try for the Tal-Ban. I am sorry to get into this, but good night what a cluster blank. B. Landen hates Sadaim, and his enemy, America, gets rid of him while at the same time creating a vacuum of power that A-Quada feels up!! All this time the Taliban is saying, “see how the US invades our countries for oil and because they are trying to take over the Middle East and Islam {Crusade talk}.” I mean G.D. what a cluster Blank.

                            Back on topic.

                            In conclusion:

                            Due to politics, America will never get a grasp on how to neutralize the enemy.
                            The concept of taking away the religious variable in this conflict will not happen. {Thanks Neoconservatives, and social conservatives, lol}

                            The Taliban should be contained, [[[remember, such a small faction can never be truly destored}}}, the best way to do that is to embrace peaceful Muslims and get the message out that America does not have a problem with Muslims but people who kill our citizens.

                            Just doing this will be a huge step forward.
                            But like I said, this is not going to happen.

                            Feel free to call me a Winston Smith (protagonist from 1984), but good night!!! Judging from this incompetent handling on the War on Terror, The Feds of the U.S.A. are just as interested in Chaos and war as are the Taliban.

                            Speaking of Big Brother, like Magnum50 said, Terror is an action, a technique. This war will gone on forever it the goal is to stop and action. Now that is cunning.
                            America and President Bush were doing well at first in not making this about religion. They enemy was once “ a group of folks.”: President Bush. but now we are starting to fade into fascism ourselves and group them as Muslim. Exactly what the enemy wants us to do.
                            (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
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                            • #15
                              Re: Time to get real, America!

                              Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                              The world has seen countless violent Buddhists. The sarin gas attacks in Tokyo's subway were carried out by Buddhist terrorists. Wars in Asia throughout the centuries are attributable to Buddhism just as wars in Europe are similarly attributable to Christianity and wars across Arabia attributable to Islam.

                              I'm personally inclined to blame 'people' more than the religion for violence - from Muslim extremists to Papally sanctioned Crusades. I suppose you could say that I view religion as more of a facilitator of violence, greasing the wheels of death, rather than the outright cause. I'm not especially firm in this position, but it seems to make sense given the similar patterns of violence which seem to perpetuate throughout human history regardless of race, religion, creed, and culture.
                              Buddhism, like Christianity, has many 'branches' and sects, as well as cults. Historically, Buddhism among countries is often intimately fused with local culture and beliefs (e.g. mainstream Chinese religion is a fusion of Mahayana Buddhism, Chinese folk religion, and Daoism). Is this actually Buddhism? Maybe, maybe not.

                              I can think of 3 major events in which Buddhism was a big factor in inducing violence: the rise of some Japanese Nichiren sects and the ensuing conflicts, and the twisted version of Shinto (which is basically a fusion of Japanese folk religion and Mahayana Buddhism) practiced in Japan during the late-19th to mid-20th centuries. Finally, during the 14th century in China, Buddhist-led fighters evicted the Mongol overlords and put an end to the Yuan dynasty.

                              IMO the main differences between Buddhism and the mainstream monotheistic faiths are:
                              1. Buddhism is not spread by the sword. (Example: Asoka, Spread of Buddhism to Central Asia, from China to Korea and Japan)
                              2. Buddhist texts have nowhere near the number of references of violence as the Torah, Talmud, Bible, and Koran.
                              3. Buddhism preaches nonviolence to a higher degree than the monotheistic faiths. (Example: Theravada Buddhist monks in Vietnam during the Vietnam War).
                              4. Buddhism has no event that can compare to the Christan crusades or early Ottoman/Umayyan/Abassid expansions. While the Japanese Empire commited atrocities in the Far East, those where more influenced by the politics of warmongers than religion.

                              Disclaimer: I don't practice religion at all, so I'm striving for an objective point-of-view. IMO the only message I take from religions in general is the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated, which should be common sense.

                              *flame suit on*
                              Regarding Islam:

                              My personal opinion may not be looked upon favorably, but I will admit that I do not hold Islam in general in as high esteem as other mainstream religions. Other than a golden age that coincided with the Dark Ages of Europe and a golden age in Asia, I don't feel that Islam has committed many positives to humanity as a whole. While I appreciate the things Islamic cultures have introduced such as the numeric system, algebra, medicine, etc., they are not pulling their weight in enriching humanity today; rather, they are impeding it through corrupt leaders squandering oil fortunes, oppression, and religion-inspired discrimination.

                              Therefore, the violent roots of Islam compounded with the current political factors natually give rise to the extremist form we see today. All that is needed to cultivate this is powerful and charismatic religious leaders, uneducated and impoverished people - due to poor leadership and overpopulation, and people who are ideologically and culturally different (the enemy).\\

                              Disclaimer #2: While I might have problem w/ Islam, I have no problems w/ most Muslims. I know many Westernized Muslims, and they are fine people.

                              TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran




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