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  • Check your wallet before you vote.

    From Misleader.org:
    Polls: Americans Not Buying Bush Tax Cut Rhetoric


    President Bush is scheduled to tout his tax cuts today at a Tax Day event in Iowa. He is expected to repeat his oft-heard mantra that tax cuts have helped all Americans. But according to a new poll by Money Magazine, "60% of Americans said the Bush tax cut did not personally help them"1. Meanwhile, almost half of all Americans say that their taxes have risen under Bush2. And a look at the record shows exactly why that majority opinion is factually correct.

    According to a non-partisan analysis, in the year 2006 88% of Americans will receive less than $100 from the president's 2003 tax cut3. Additionally, the president has refused to extend the full child tax credit to 16 million children4, including 250,000 children of military families5. At the same time, the president's 2004 budget proposed an increase of almost $6 billion in new federal taxes and fees6 while creating record-deficits that have forced states to raise taxes by $14.5 billion since 20017. And to top it off, he has reduced IRS audits of large profitable corporations whose tax rates have plummeted8, while increasing IRS audits of ordinary Americans9.

    Of course, there is a handful of people who are reaping a personal windfall from Bush's tax policy: President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and their top campaign donors. The president himself pocketed more than $30,000 in new tax breaks this year while the Vice President took in an extra $11,00010. And a new Public Campaign report shows that top Bush-Cheney contributors are raking in even more11. For instance, Charles Cawley, CEO of credit card giant MBNA, raised more than $200,000 for the Bush-Cheney campaign and was rewarded with at least $276,000 in tax breaks. Similarly, William MaGuire, CEO of UnitedHealth Group, raised more than $100,000 for the Bush-Cheney campaign and will get at least $329,000 in new tax breaks from President Bush.
    Go through the above link to get to the linked sources. One I really liked was "Bush Tax Plan's Child Credit Boost Leaves Behind One in Four of America's Children", Citizens for Tax Justice, 05/29/2003. in which it was stated that

    The highly-touted temporary increase in the per-child tax credit to $1,000 for 2003 and
    2004 will provide no benefit to one out of four families with children under 17, because
    they do not earn enough to qualify for the aid.
    and

    The Senate version of the Bush tax plan would have
    extended the benefits of the child credit to many now-ineligible
    families. That feature was dropped from the bill,
    however, to make room for larger reductions in taxes on
    the wealthy.
    I think I'm voting for Nader on principle. He actually agrees with a lot of what I feel is important. The stuff we don't agree on, I don't care about so much anyway. We've got to get away from the chokehold the two big parties have on the Americian people.

  • #2
    Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

    The sources in your post are pretty well known liberal establishments. I saw another poll yesterday that said 60% of people making under $25,000 thought their taxes were too high. When in fact more than 60% of those people PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

    People's perceptions and realities are two different things. We can banter about polls and percentages of this and that, but your vote is a very important thing. I shouldn't say this becuase your vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, but why don't you go ask a CPA just exactly what the tax cuts have done and for whom?
    New to TG?

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    • #3
      Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

      Originally posted by Fait_Maker
      The highly-touted temporary increase in the per-child tax credit to $1,000 for 2003 and
      2004 will provide no benefit to one out of four families with children under 17, because
      they do not earn enough to qualify for the aid.
      Yeah, notice how the stats never show that these families aren't paying any taxes right now, anyway???? You can't cut taxes below zero... (Actually I'm wrong, there are many families out there that are receiving more money from the government than they are giving...)
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      • #4
        Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

        Originally posted by USN_Squid
        The sources in your post are pretty well known liberal establishments. I saw another poll yesterday that said 60% of people making under $25,000 thought their taxes were too high. When in fact more than 60% of those people PAY NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX.

        People's perceptions and realities are two different things. We can banter about polls and percentages of this and that, but your vote is a very important thing. I shouldn't say this becuase your vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, but why don't you go ask a CPA just exactly what the tax cuts have done and for whom?
        You know.. After I posted it, I started thinking about something I've said before. 95% of all taxes are paid by the top 5%. I think that's the numbers I posted when we discussed this kind of issue before. I don't remember and I'm not looking it back up because I'm at work. However, it's close so let's go with it. Two often I allow myself to speak with emotion before I think it out.

        I don't like Bush. I don't like what he stands for and I don't like who he is. I like Kerry less. While you may think that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, I think my vote will start a trend. As more and more people continue to vote independant, the two parties are going to start to wake up and take notice. It's your belief that my vote will be a vote for Bush that continues to allow the two parties to give us crappy candidates. My vote may be wasted this year, but how will it affect the campaign at the next one? The one after that? Social change isn't done over night. I'm tired of voting the lesser of the evils. I'm going to vote for Nader and rest easy even if he loses, because I voted with my heart.

        I work for an accounting office in a manufacturing company. My boss is the financial manager and is a CPA. We've had these discussions.

        Here's his reply...

        You have to love free speech, but you don't have to believe it.

        1. The bottom 50% wage earners pay only 4% of the total tax
        collected, of which many receive the earned income credit. That
        means they get paid from those who pay taxes for making less.
        It is easy not to benefit from tax cuts when you don't pay taxes.
        How much more than 50% of a companies taxable income should
        they give?

        2. If you ended up with at least 7,000.00 of taxable income you at
        least saved 350.00 in tax. ( the first 7000 went from 15% to 10% tax
        for everyone )

        3. I personally have saved over 6,000.00 in taxes over the course of
        the Bush Admin. I do not consider myself rich (educated middle
        class, but not rich)

        4. I do not have any clue how the FEDERAL deficit has any impact
        on how STATES determine to raise taxes. ( educate me )

        5. Our company has benefited from plenty of tax breaks without giving to the
        republican party. I might add they were vital through the course of
        the past couple of years. What links are proven that those
        mentioned below received a special tax line on their form that says
        "did you give to the republican campaign... please deduct 300,000
        from your taxes.")? I assume that Heinz gave all their tax breaks
        back to the IRS.
        I did enlighten him to #4. Federal funds coming back into the state are counted on by the states. If they are taken out of the budget, states will increase taxes to pay for the loss. His reply was "I would rather pay State taxes than Federal. At least I know those monies are being used for my own state instead of some other states misguided ventures." FYI, We are in Ohio and California really pisses him off.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

          Originally posted by CingularDuality
          Yeah, notice how the stats never show that these families aren't paying any taxes right now, anyway???? You can't cut taxes below zero... (Actually I'm wrong, there are many families out there that are receiving more money from the government than they are giving...)

          That is correct. A while ago when I only made $10-14k, I would get somewhere around $2-3K back in EIC, with having maybe $500 withheld. Now I'm married in the $40-45k range and don't get EIC at all.

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          • #6
            Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

            My vote is with Jessie V. (thinking about running in 2008) No more income tax and strickly sales tax.
            I am sick of all these Sniveling weasels.

            Those who buy more should pay more.

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            • #7
              Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

              Originally posted by Emanon
              Those who buy more should pay more.
              Why is that?

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              • #8
                Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                If people buy more, they have more money. Its also alot simpiler to understand. (for me atleast)
                I Live in Mass. where you get a fed income tax, mass income tax, and also a mass sales tax.


                Nothing like getting Taxed twice from the state on things you wish to buy.
                Last edited by Emanon; 04-16-2004, 02:39 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                  Originally posted by Emanon
                  If people buy more, they have more money. Its also alot simpiler to understand. (for me atleast)
                  I Live in Mass. where you get a fed income tax, mass income tax, and also a mass sales tax.


                  Nothing like getting Taxed twice from the state on things you wish to buy.
                  <chanting> Fair Tax! Fair Tax! ...

                  Anyway, try Pennsylvania. In certain cities you pay:
                  1) Federal income tax
                  2) State income tax
                  3) County income tax
                  4) City income tax
                  Plus applicable sales taxes, property taxes, etc ...not to mention the state-run liquor stores. Sheesh.

                  Admittedly the county & city income taxes are pretty small (fractions of a percent) but still! Now that I'm in Illinois paying my additional 3% I seriously miss Texas (no income taxes except federal). In theory I have lower property taxes here, since that's mainly how TX makes it up, but living in Chicago I don't even get that sop.

                  I'm with you Fait_Maker. A vote for Nader is a vote for Nader, not a vote for Bush. We have to start somewhere and I'll say it again: I think its the core Democrats and Republicans pushing that "Wasted Vote" [stuff] so hard because they want to keep their political power. We have 1 independent in the House and 1 in the Senate (hooray for Vermont). Let's keep it up.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                    Originally posted by Emanon
                    My vote is with Jessie V. (thinking about running in 2008) No more income tax and strickly sales tax.
                    I am sick of all these Sniveling weasels.

                    Those who buy more should pay more.
                    Is your proposition strictly on current taxable items or are we going to start taxing food items? How about when you buy a house. Will you want to see sales tax on that? Do corporations pay sales tax on their raw materials because they won't be paying income tax either? If so, you've increased the price of the product thereby increasing the amount of sales tax...

                    Depending on your decisions, you may just have the poor paying more in taxes going by just a sales tax. Currently they don't pay taxes but with a sales tax they could get taxed to death on things they can't do without.. utilities, food... housing...

                    While I like the sales tax idea because it's easier, currently the lower incomes get taxed way less than the more richer in America by percentage.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                      Originally posted by Fait_Maker
                      Depending on your decisions, you may just have the poor paying more in taxes going by just a sales tax. Currently they don't pay taxes but with a sales tax they could get taxed to death on things they can't do without.. utilities, food... housing...
                      Actually, the poor do not end up paying more. They get credits so they don't end up paying taxes on items. This is similar to the current situation. I think you need to read up on the "federal sales tax" proposal. You seem to have some misconceptions about it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                        Originally posted by Fait_Maker
                        Is your proposition strictly on current taxable items or are we going to start taxing food items? How about when you buy a house. Will you want to see sales tax on that? Do corporations pay sales tax on their raw materials because they won't be paying income tax either? If so, you've increased the price of the product thereby increasing the amount of sales tax...

                        Depending on your decisions, you may just have the poor paying more in taxes going by just a sales tax. Currently they don't pay taxes but with a sales tax they could get taxed to death on things they can't do without.. utilities, food... housing...

                        While I like the sales tax idea because it's easier, currently the lower incomes get taxed way less than the more richer in America by percentage.
                        Please spend some time at www.FairTax.org and read more. All your answers are there (no the poor do not get taxed more, and companies still have to compete with each other which drives prices). I don't work for them, I just like the idea.

                        As far as your 3rd party vote....more power to you. I voted for Perot and got Clinton. Was my vote wasted...you bet your ass.
                        Last edited by USN_Squid; 04-17-2004, 02:56 AM.
                        New to TG?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                          Originally posted by USN_Squid
                          Was my vote wasted...you bet your ass.
                          Possibly for that particular election. But you must look at the big picture. I doubt we're going to elect a minor party candidate this year either. But we have to keep trying. FairTax isn't going to get passed on the first try either. But if we who believe in it don't keep supporting it over and over until everyone else comes around, it will never get passed at all. At least, that's how I see it. If the North had given up after that first overwhelming loss in the Civil War, the US would be two or more separate countries right now.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                            That's a good point Geisha, but I don't see any momentum building up at all with any of the "third" parties. With the Libertarians being a possible exception. Anymore the 3rd parties are just the ragged extreme edges of the two main parties.

                            The two main parties form an umbrella and anyone that strongly believes in any of the single issues supported by the two parties must fall under one of the umbrellas or forgo any hope of their ideals being represented. And I fully understand it is this view point that keeps the 3rd parties from going anywhere, but what are you going to do? People want to vote for someone they think has a shot of winning.
                            New to TG?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Check your wallet before you vote.

                              Originally posted by USN_Squid
                              And I fully understand it is this view point that keeps the 3rd parties from going anywhere, but what are you going to do?
                              Personally, I'm going to keep voting moderately anyway. :icon12: And you're absolutely right that some of those minor parties are extremely scary.
                              Originally posted by USN_Squid
                              People want to vote for someone they think has a shot of winning.
                              I guess I can't really argue with that viewpoint directly, but it's edging towards bandwagon-ism - jumping on whichever boat is in the lead just because it's perceived to be in the lead. *shrug* I'm ready to agree to disagree, now that I think I've gotten all possible angles out of my viewpoint. :)

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