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  • Great its only gonna get uglier......

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2001682,00.html


    So we are now attacking Iranians who attack us in Iraq. Sounds like both sides are just looking for excuses to take each other out. Guess life is about to get a lot harder for our military and families.

    Why doesn't anyone in the US see our plan for Iraq is not working. Democracy in a Muslim country does not fit in their culture. Their culture is more religious then ours and their governments are tied to their religious beliefs.


    This should be an interesting thread
    that sounds like a good idea trooper.
    -Vulcan

  • #2
    Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

    plan?
    Peace through fear... since 1947!

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    • #3
      Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

      touche
      that sounds like a good idea trooper.
      -Vulcan

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

        Why doesn't anyone in the US see our plan for Iraq is not working. Democracy in a Muslim country does not fit in their culture. Their culture is more religious then ours and their governments are tied to their religious beliefs.
        Democracy isn't exactly something you can invade and force upon a very different culture, especially in the mideast. It may take generations before democracy flourishes in the middle east, assuming that's the natural form of government people in that region would want to have or be able to keep.

        Just because it worked so great for us and the western world doesn't mean its the best for everyone else. Although I'm sure nobody likes living under a dictator, unless their one of more benign ones, if there is such a thing.
        Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
        Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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        • #5
          Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

          Tonight, on the Colbert Show, Stephen had a guest who pretty much said the U.S. is there to build military bases as they had always been trying to do (along with the British) since Eisenhower. I've read and heard this arguement before and I've always pretty much believed this to be true. It makes sense.

          The idea that we're there to bring Democracy to Iraq is a farce and has always been so. This is probably why the Iranians are stepping up their actions in Iraq. I'm sure it's the last thing they want to see.
          | | |

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          • #6
            Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

            Tonight, on the Colbert Show, Stephen had a guest who pretty much said the U.S. is there to build military bases as they had always been trying to do (along with the British) since Eisenhower. I've read and heard this arguement before and I've always pretty much believed this to be true. It makes sense.

            The idea that we're there to bring Democracy to Iraq is a farce and has always been so. This is probably why the Iranians are stepping up their actions in Iraq. I'm sure it's the last thing they want to see.
            I thought this was common knowledge, well minus the democracy part.
            Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
            Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

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            • #7
              Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

              Will the Iranians have enough roses to toss under our troops' feet? Maybe we should plan ahead start air-dropping some roses now.
              A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

              "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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              • #8
                Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                NPR Interview with President Bush (mp3) from this morning in case you missed it.


                Transcript


                Iran's ambassador to Iraq says Iran is planning to greatly expand its economic and military ties with Iran – with Iraq. You said you have proof of Iran's role in attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq. I know you want to take care of this diplomatically – I've heard you say that – but if Iran escalates its military action in Iraq, how will the U.S. respond?

                PRESIDENT BUSH: If Iran escalates its military action in Iraq to the detriment of our troops and/or innocent Iraqi people, we will respond firmly. We – it makes common sense for the commander-in-chief to say to our troops and the Iraqi people and the Iraqi government that we will help you defend yourself from people that want to sow discord and harm. And so we will do what it takes to protect our troops.

                One of the things that is very important in discussing Iran is not to mix issues. Our relationship with Iran is based upon a lot of different issues. One is what is happening in Iraq. Another is their ambitions to have a nuclear weapon. And we're dealing with this issue diplomatically, and I think this can be solved diplomatically. And the message that we are working to send to the Iranian regime and the Iranian people is that you will become increasingly isolated if you continue to pursue a nuclear weapon.

                The message to the Iranian people is that your government is going to cause you deprivation. In other words, you've got a chance to really flourish again as a great tradition. However, if your government continues to insist upon a nuclear weapon, there will be lost opportunity for the Iranian people. They won't be able to realize their full potential.

                The Iranian people have got to know that this government and the United States bears no hostility to them. We're just deeply concerned about a government that is insisting upon having a nuclear weapon, and at the same time, rewriting history – the history of the past, and regards, for example, the Holocaust. It troubles a lot of people in this world, and I'll continue to work with, you know, friends and allies to send a clear message.

                MR. WILLIAMS: By the way, just quickly, Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader says that if you have an incursion into Iran, he expects that you would come to the Senate for approval.

                PRESIDENT BUSH: I have no intent upon incur—going into Iran. I mean, this is the kind of thing that happens in Washington. People ascribe, you know, motives to me beyond a simple statement – of course we'll protect our troops. I don't know how anybody can then say, well, protecting the troops means that we're going to invade Iran. If that's what he's talking about, there's – I mean, we will protect our interests in Iraq. That's what the American people expect us to do. That's definitely what our troops want to do, and that's what the families of our troops want us to do. And if we find the Iranians are moving weapons that will end up harming American troops, we'll deal with it.

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                • #9
                  Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                  I think we all knew something like this was coming. Let's just hope some more diplomatic action happens before everyone pulls out their toys.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                    Alright, I don't know much about the matter so I'll spill what I know and pose some questions.

                    1) We know the Iranians are supplying shape-charged IEDs which are much more deadly than the "mortars strung together" variety. So far there hasn't been widespread usage of them because most of the fighting has been with Sunni insurgents, who don't have access to the shape-charged IEDs. Now that the US and Iraqi government are moving against the Shiite militias we'll probably see more of these more lethal IEDs used. Is that all the dirt we have on the Iranians, because if so I don't see much of a difference between that and our supplying F-16s to all sorts of shady governments around the world. Granted, one is done for money and one is done for ideology and influence. Hmmm...

                    2) Is Iran really building a nuclear power plant because its energy needs are that great? I mean, the country still has oil reserves but it seems almost 30 years of sanctions have really crippled their capacity to supply their own energy needs. Nevermind the fact the largest source of revenue for many middle eastern countries comes from their oil exports; if Iran can't even meet its own needs, how can it export? I guess what I'm saying is this: the Iraqi infrastructure was brought to its knees after 12 years of sanctions (who's dealing with this now, again?); how robust can Iran possibly be after 30 years of the same? A follow-up would be that if we went to Iraq for WMD + regime change, I'm hoping the American people wouldn't fall for the same BS a second time in such a short amount of time. Give us at least 25 years to repeat the same mistakes, sheesh!

                    3) OK, assuming both the Iranians and Americans keep their heads here (and I believe this to be the case), who's to say the Israelis won't bomb the nuclear plant? This is actually interesting because Israel will either fly over Jordan or Syria, then fly over Iraq to get to Iran. Of course, the Iraqis really aren't in control of their airspace so US would either need to give the Israelis a "nod", thus enraging the majority of middle eastern countries, deny Israel the use of Iraqi airspace (aaaaaaaawkward!), or lie and tell the world they had no knowledge Israeli planes ever flew over Iraq. Nobody could possibly believe the latter.

                    4) Ultimately, if Iran produces a nuclear weapon, the middle east will become a mess 100x worse than its current state. Multiple countries would seek to "go nuclear" and it couldn't possibly end well, for anybody.

                    Am I missing something here, or is that pretty much the situation?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                      The hot word on the street is that the Iranians have many locations for nuclear development, and that these sites are spread throughout the country. They are said to be at least partially and at most almost entirely underground or fortified: If this rumor is true, it pretty much renders any Israeli military option outside of nuclear strikes worthless.
                      A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                      "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                        Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
                        Why doesn't anyone in the US see our plan for Iraq is not working. Democracy in a Muslim country does not fit in their culture. Their culture is more religious then ours and their governments are tied to their religious beliefs.
                        Turkey is 99% Muslim and has had a representative parliamentary democracy for about 50 years. It has been a rocky one occasionally marred by coups or governments that were reluctant to leave power, but overall it has been fairly stable.

                        Lebanon, for all it's troubles, has been trying to build a stable republic since the Ta'if Accord.

                        Other predominantly Muslim nations in the region have experimented with representative governments to a varying degree of success, usually culminating in a mixed secular/Islamic monarch/parliamentary system. Difficult, not ideal, but workable. Certainly, the greater obstacle to the formation of many of these democracies is the entrenched monarchy, not the local religion.

                        My point is, it's misleading to paint with the broad brush that says Islam is incompatible with democracy. It just so happens that the currently depressed, fractured sectarian culture of places like Iraq make democracy very very difficult. Especially when you knock off their only known nationalist power structure.

                        Anyway, Iran. Yeah, we might be [email protected]#$ed.
                        In game handle: Steel Scion
                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                          Originally posted by Steeler View Post
                          Turkey is 99% Muslim and has had a representative parliamentary democracy for about 50 years. It has been a rocky one occasionally marred by coups or governments that were reluctant to leave power, but overall it has been fairly stable.

                          Lebanon, for all it's troubles, has been trying to build a stable republic since the Ta'if Accord.

                          Other predominantly Muslim nations in the region have experimented with representative governments to a varying degree of success, usually culminating in a mixed secular/Islamic monarch/parliamentary system. Difficult, not ideal, but workable. Certainly, the greater obstacle to the formation of many of these democracies is the entrenched monarchy, not the local religion.

                          My point is, it's misleading to paint with the broad brush that says Islam is incompatible with democracy. It just so happens that the currently depressed, fractured sectarian culture of places like Iraq make democracy very very difficult. Especially when you knock off their only known nationalist power structure.

                          Anyway, Iran. Yeah, we might be [email protected]#$ed.

                          Well said steeler, after reading your post i relized more and more islamic countries are starting to go toward "democracy or representative" governments. I think the problem with Iraq's government now is the USA has to many hands in the pot and is trying to control it while not trying to make it to obviouse, not working. Those other countries that have democratic type governments only acheavied after fighting and possible civil war.

                          Im not to sure the Iranians actually want anything to do with the USA or Iraq seeings how some reports of other leaders in Iran want nothing to do with their current "president".
                          that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                          -Vulcan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
                            Why doesn't anyone in the US see our plan for Iraq is not working.
                            Actually in this case it is working, and quite well. Bush has said multiple times over that part of the overall Iraq 'strategy' is to take the fight to the enemy. Rumsfeld had predicted all along that foreign fighters would attempt to fight in Iraq from Syria and Iran. A large part of this plan was to let Iraq crumble just enough so foreign fighters (Al Qaeda and anyone else) would rush in.

                            At this point, I believe that the Bush administration likes the prospect of drawing Iran into a ground war in Iraq instead of simply face the prospect of 'working' through the UN, imposing sanctions for decades while carriers sit waiting for air strike orders.

                            Why are we hearing more about this now? Because Bush sees it as additional ammo in the argument for continuing the conflict. If Iran is involved, that's all the more reason to continue 'taking the fight to the enemy.'

                            Bush started one hell of a chess game, and it's still only getting started.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Great its only gonna get uglier......

                              Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
                              Im not to sure the Iranians actually want anything to do with the USA or Iraq seeings how some reports of other leaders in Iran want nothing to do with their current "president".
                              This really struck me, because don't we have a similar situation here in America. A vast majority of the public (about 65% right now), as well as 'leaders' (Congress), want nothing to do with Iraq, Iran, or the current "president."

                              If the cooler heads prevail in all places, which is entirely possible, things may actually settle down (except not in poor Iraq). Then, perhaps we can simply get back to the business of running our own country and properly defending it against groups like Al Qaeda, which will always exist in one form or another.

                              I still can't get over how ridiculous the concept of a 'war on terror' is, and how mind-boggling it is to have a sitting president that believes we will somehow emerge 'victorious' from such a conflict. I'd like to wage war on foolishness. Wouldn't that be a noble victory.

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