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President Hillary, Visionary or not?

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  • President Hillary, Visionary or not?

    The other day Hillary Clinton held a speech and made front-page headlines with one of her comments. She proclaimed, should U.S. troops be in Iraq in January 2009 and she had been elected President, she would pull them out of the area. Obviously, she was met with a standing ovation and the press went "nuts" over it.

    So you know now, this thread IS NOT about whether or not I, or anyone else for that matter, agree with military actions in the Middle East theatre. I have my own opinions about that and I don't want this thread to be "sidetracked" or "hijacked" into that discussion. Good God, could you imagine?

    I didn't get the "warm fuzzies" that many others felt from her comments. When she said that, I wondered if she cared about people or was this statement made just to get exposure and headlines. Allow me to elaborate.

    I support democracy. I support civil rights. I believe people should be allowed to live without fear. All of which are basic, essential needs society should aspire to achieve. Wouldn't her plan, should the scenario came to fruition, deny people those simple desires? Be honest with yourself when you think about that.

    Try this approach. Think about how long African-Americans fought for their civil liberties. Now imagine if someone said the "price" was too high to continue that struggle, so the "fight" was going to end. Let the cards fall where they will mentality. Would that have been the right thing to do? You know the answer to that.

    I don't like what she said and I don't agree with it in the slightest way. Is it because they aren't Americans? One argument I heard was, "They have been fighting each other for thousands of years." So what? That doesn't take away from them needing the most basic of human rights.

    Think of this as well if you would. If she doesn't care about them, and I feel she doesn't, what makes you think she cares about you? I'll get off my soap-box now.

    Peace.
    |TG-Irr| Boxcar0715
    "It's really easy to forget what's important... so don't!"

  • #2
    Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

    her statement is way to blanketed and shes dumb for saying it she has no idea what our situation or iraqs in 2009 for her to be predicted and saying what she is going to do.
    Current member of the

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    • #3
      Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

      She probably cares for those in Iraq just as much, or as little, as just about every other politician. There is no way to know one way or the other, really.

      And your example is poor at best. You are talking about a group of people in an already democratic country not able to participate fully in the process. It seems to me that African-Americans had already earned the right to the same freedoms as everybody else in this country. The "fight" was to correct a long maintained injustice of a supposedly just country.

      I would say that Iraqi's, on the other hand, only deserve human rights if they work and fight for them. Freedom, and the rights that come with it, cannot be given to a people.

      So the fact that they are not Americans is very important. But that goes back to the "should we be there" thread so that is all I will say on that.

      And is she visionary? Well, probably not. But it is rare that visionaries aspire to be president.
      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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      • #4
        Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

        I only think that statement is to get her votes/attention. The war is one of the biggest issues in the upcoming election and will be one of the deciding factors for which way somebody's vote goes. Bunch of crappy political tactics.

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        • #5
          Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

          she said she would pull them out, she did not say when. So "if" she wins and pulls them out it might not be until the 3rd or 4th year of her term
          that sounds like a good idea trooper.
          -Vulcan

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          • #6
            Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

            Originally posted by Trooper[SNPR] View Post
            she said she would pull them out, she did not say when. So "if" she wins and pulls them out it might not be until the 3rd or 4th year of her term
            Very true. Just like her husband, Slick Willie, he made a bunch of promises when he first ran for President, but finally made good on a few of them his last year in office. So that took 8 years I believe? I can't stand politicians. It seems to best to vote for the lesser of two evils. Thus, I'm voting for anyone who's not Hillary. I don't think she's visionary. She's saying what pleases her audience most. She always does that. I remember when she spoke at a NAACP event last year. She said something along the lines of "This congress under President Bush is run like a Plantation. And Ya'll know what I'm talkin' bout." <--(She was trying her best to sound urban I think) I personally found that very very offensive. As if she could possibly compare being a rich white Senator to being a poor beaten slave on a plantation in the 1800's. Not cool. But it was a real crowd pleaser at the moment.
            "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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            • #7
              Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

              Just to back up my quote which wasn't perfect. Here is a link with an article written by...Gasp... a real black guy, Walter Williams. Hehe. Reading this, I learned that at the 95th NAACP annual convention, John Kerry gave them the Black Power salute, the raised clenched fist. Now that's classic. I should run around the black side of town and see how far I get while running around and doing that. Only a politician....geeez.

              http://www.townhall.com/columnists/W...ring_to_blacks
              "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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              • #8
                Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                To begin, everyone has there own opinions. I, and I hope all others, applaude your use of your right to free speech. But I don't agree with you at all. That's what makes our freedoms so desirable to people not ALLOWED to use them.

                Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                ... It seems to me that African-Americans had already earned the right to the same freedoms as everybody else in this country. ...
                A quick history lesson. The Civil War ended in 1865, thus beginning Reconstruction and allowing certain freedoms to former slaves. In 1875, ten years after the war, the Civil Rights Act was passed, protecting African-Americans from private acts of discrimination. Reconstruction ended in 1877. In 1883, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the 14th Amendment applied to acts government not private entities. This allowed individuals and non-government establishments to perform acts of discrimination as demonstrated by Plessy vs. Ferguson of 1896.

                By supplying this information I was trying to make a point. The civil rights movement didn't occur only between the 1940's and 70's. It was a long process, one that had accomplishments as well as short-falls. Not everyone supported the movement and some stood against it.

                Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                ... I would say that Iraqi's, on the other hand, only deserve human rights if they work and fight for them. Freedom, and the rights that come with it, cannot be given to a people. ...
                I believe, after having served in the armed forces and meeting the people of Iraq, that many of the Iraqi population are fighting for their human rights. How many new Iraqi police officers have been kidnapped and/or killed fighting for their new government? How many more have enlisted in those ranks knowing the same could happen to them? And what if they couldn't stand up for themselves and fight for their rights? To hell with them?

                Holy crap - I've hijacked myself!!!!

                Hillary Clinton is wrong for her comments and should have more compassion for those throughout the world, not just those who's vote she wants.
                |TG-Irr| Boxcar0715
                "It's really easy to forget what's important... so don't!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                  Originally posted by Boxcar0715 View Post
                  To begin, everyone has there own opinions. I, and I hope all others, applaude your use of your right to free speech. But I don't agree with you at all. That's what makes our freedoms so desirable to people not ALLOWED to use them.

                  A quick history lesson. The Civil War ended in 1865, thus beginning Reconstruction and allowing certain freedoms to former slaves. In 1875, ten years after the war, the Civil Rights Act was passed, protecting African-Americans from private acts of discrimination. Reconstruction ended in 1877. In 1883, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the 14th Amendment applied to acts government not private entities. This allowed individuals and non-government establishments to perform acts of discrimination as demonstrated by Plessy vs. Ferguson of 1896.

                  By supplying this information I was trying to make a point. The civil rights movement didn't occur only between the 1940's and 70's. It was a long process, one that had accomplishments as well as short-falls. Not everyone supported the movement and some stood against it.
                  Toning down the paternalism a bit may help your displayed sincerity some. I don't really need a history lesson that is all of one paragraph long.

                  I never said the laws of this country always allowed their freedom. I said that they had earned their freedom long before any silly law stating as much. In fact it was the laws that kept them in slavery or prevented them from fully participating in the system. This showed the injustice.

                  But the fact remains that the country was already a democracy. The people of the country had fought to obtain and maintain the democracy. African-Americans did some of that fighting. African-Americans did much of the work to build the country itself. And yet they did not share the same freedoms? The fight to fully include them was not one to create a democracy. It was to make the democracy more pure according to the ideals.

                  It was to provide equality to all within the state through democratic means.

                  A bit different than what is going on in Iraq, no?

                  Originally posted by Boxcar0715 View Post
                  I believe, after having served in the armed forces and meeting the people of Iraq, that many of the Iraqi population are fighting for their human rights. How many new Iraqi police officers have been kidnapped and/or killed fighting for their new government? How many more have enlisted in those ranks knowing the same could happen to them? And what if they couldn't stand up for themselves and fight for their rights? To hell with them?.
                  First you make an assumption that I think many Americans make. That there is no way those who want freedom in can do it without us. That we must somehow lead them to democracy.

                  That is a bit elitist, don't you think?

                  And it does stand to reason that some people simply are not ready for democracy. Doesn't it? Even if a significant number of the people want democracy there may be other issues that must be dealt with before the goals can be accomplished. And I don't think that we are the ones to determine whether a people is ready or not ready. Only they can determine it.

                  Of course we can, and in most cases should, help any people that wishes to create this type of government. Some believe, however, that what help we do give should be of the minimalist kind. That otherwise the country helped will be looked upon, even by themselves, as an illegitimate entity. That by forcing it upon the people you do nothing but undermine the long term viability of the nation helped.

                  You are correct in that it is a long process. I don't even think America has even come close to the conclusion of said process. But it seems to me that the process must be started by those desiring the "free state. And they must do the vast majority of the work.

                  Originally posted by Boxcar0715 View Post
                  Hillary Clinton is wrong for her comments and should have more compassion for those throughout the world, not just those who's vote she wants.
                  Ok. If that is your stance then so be it. I am just not sure why you singled out Mrs. Clinton when there are others in both parties that have said, basically, the same thing.

                  Or are you simply attacking the front runner of the opposing party?
                  Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                    Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post

                    First you make an assumption that I think many Americans make. That there is no way those who want freedom in can do it without us. That we must somehow lead them to democracy.

                    That is a bit elitist, don't you think?

                    ?
                    Well, how were they going to fight for freedom under a merciless dictator? I'd like to see you fight for freedom when the second you say something wrong they lop your head off.
                    Current member of the

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                    • #11
                      Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                      Simply stated, my worst nightmare concerning American politics consists of two things:

                      1. Ted Kennedy managing to get his ultra liberal ideas passed into law by congress

                      2. Hilary Clinton occupying the Oval Office.


                      Part 2 now appearing to be quite the possibility and part 1 only a delusional nightmare.

                      I think Hilary Clinton is the absolute WORST thing that could happen to the United States if she ends up in the Oval Office. Right now her damage is pretty much contained and relatively small considering her current position. Put her in a powerful office and rue each day from Jan. 2009 to Jan. 2013.

                      Games: GRAW, BF2142, Oblivion, FarCry, Empire At War, R6:RVS, KotOR, KotOR2, MW4: Mercs, FEAR (XP)




                      *Hiss* "Oh...crap!" *BLAM* "I'm down....MEDIC!!"

                      DirtyLude: "If we kill him and eat his heart, his magic will be ours."

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                      • #12
                        Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                        First you make an assumption that I think many Americans make. That there is no way those who want freedom in can do it without us. That we must somehow lead them to democracy.

                        That is a bit elitist, don't you think?

                        And it does stand to reason that some people simply are not ready for democracy. Doesn't it? Even if a significant number of the people want democracy there may be other issues that must be dealt with before the goals can be accomplished. And I don't think that we are the ones to determine whether a people is ready or not ready. Only they can determine it.

                        Of course we can, and in most cases should, help any people that wishes to create this type of government. Some believe, however, that what help we do give should be of the minimalist kind. That otherwise the country helped will be looked upon, even by themselves, as an illegitimate entity. That by forcing it upon the people you do nothing but undermine the long term viability of the nation helped.

                        You are correct in that it is a long process. I don't even think America has even come close to the conclusion of said process. But it seems to me that the process must be started by those desiring the "free state. And they must do the vast majority of the work.
                        Democracy comes from within, and this is assuming this is the natural (and highest order) of government to be achieved by any nation\state. What makes us think our version of democracy is the best for every nation, and now our 'responsibility' to spread this form of government across the globe? Sure we helped destroy a dictator we helped empower, but how much better off are they now? Why should they trust us now that our interests are in their best interests as well?

                        Beyond that, it's this concept of military interventionism that's got me, what ever happened to American humility? It doesn't matter if Hilary is going to bring the troops home (although that would be a relief for the ones over there), as we're planning to be in the region for a long time from the looks of things.
                        Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
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                        • #13
                          Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                          Obama will win the nomination. The media portray him like the second coming of christ.
                          Current member of the

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                          • #14
                            Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                            Originally posted by Zid View Post
                            Well, how were they going to fight for freedom under a merciless dictator? I'd like to see you fight for freedom when the second you say something wrong they lop your head off.
                            Pretty good question. I wonder how we're going to fight for freedom from the British empire with no professional army or navy, and paltry resources compared to Britain. Wait a minute...

                            On the topic at hand, I believe Hillary is blowing smoke to get votes. I doubt any president that gets elected, no matter how anti-war, will pull troops out anytime soon. None of this matters though, since Bush will still be in power.
                            [squadl]
                            "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

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                            • #15
                              Re: President Hillary, Visionary or not?

                              I'm worried about how that hag supports Jack "****Head" Thompson and his crusade against any and all video games

                              God FORBID she becomes president, cause then Jack "Ass" Thompson will have an ally with actual power.

                              Say goodbye to ANY game rated over E! (that include HL!)
                              Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead!

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