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  • Real ID

    What do you guys think about this? Is a national ID card (This isn't a national ID card, but, really, it is...) a bad thing? I know it will certainly make my job easier, but I'm worried about the potential for abuse. Throughout history, when nations have forced their own people to "carry papers" as a rule, things have gotten ugly.

    Homeland Security RealID FAQ

    PDF of the proposed regulations

    Comments may be made for sixty days, BTW. www.regulations.gov for that...
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  • #2
    Re: Real ID

    I'm not sure I understand the implications of being forced to carry a national ID at all times?

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    • #3
      Re: Real ID

      What about under aged people do we get our drivers licenses at sooner :D

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      • #4
        Re: Real ID

        Is this a National ID card?

        No. The proposed regulations establish common standards for States to issue licenses. The Federal Government is not issuing the licenses, is not collecting information about license holders, and is not requiring States to transmit license holder information to the Federal Government that the Government does not already have (such as a Social Security Number). Most States already routinely collect the information required by the Act and the proposed regulations.
        Finally, I can sleep easy again [/sarcasm] Seriously though, the thing that always gets to me is the fingerprint\retinal scans, but for now it seems that's up to individual states. I'm waiting to see how transparent this whole thing will be and the privacy mechanisms. Although I still don't see how this will make us any safer from determined people that kill themselves and as many others at the same time.

        Is there any hard statistical data from other countries that have a national ID, which has reduced terrorism? How much access can the federal government get on a whim, and how can it use it? The RFID tag part, how would the state use this and would it be used responsibly? There are lots of questions to be answered.

        The thing that I don't want to see happen is the gradual erosion of limits on where you can go without having to show an ID. Interstate random ID check road stops? Need an ID to ride a bus? You get the idea.
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        • #5
          Re: Real ID

          Originally posted by aeroripper View Post

          The thing that I don't want to see happen is the gradual erosion of limits on where you can go without having to show an ID. Interstate random ID check road stops? Need an ID to ride a bus? You get the idea.
          Don't worry, that will come too, just give it some time.

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          • #6
            Re: Real ID

            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
            Throughout history, when nations have forced their own people to "carry papers" as a rule, things have gotten ugly.
            Which is what it boils down to. Registration is always followed by regulations and restrictions, be it cars or guns or people.
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            • #7
              Re: Real ID

              The NPRM does not propose to change this practice and would not give the Federal government any greater access to this information than is currently accessible from individual State DMVs.
              Of course not. First you have to get the information collected. THEN you pass a new law that gives the government full access to it all. In the mean time, law enforcement will find some way to illegally use the information, and judges will allow it. It's already happened here in the UK. DNA evidence, that by law should have been destroyed, was introduced in a case. The judge ruled that the evidence was illegal, but still allowed it to be used.

              The link says that there will be no requirement for iris, fingerprint, or worse still, DNA. Given that "democratic" governments seem determined (obsessed perhaps) with collecting DNA evidence on all of us, my guess is that in no more than 5 years from this becoming law (isn't democracy great? You don't have to doubt if a law will be enacted) requiring DNA to be included.

              Is this a National ID card?

              No. The proposed regulations establish common standards for States to issue licenses. The Federal Government is not issuing the licenses, is not collecting information about license holders, and is not requiring States to transmit license holder information to the Federal Government that the Government does not already have (such as a Social Security Number). Most States already routinely collect the information required by the Act and the proposed regulations.
              Pure semantics. Government is government, whether its state or federal. The federal government is going to force this law in, so it IS issuing the licences. If they were giving states an option to opt-out, then at least on paper that argument would be plausable. In reality, various deals and threats would be made behind the scenes, and the states would go ahead and do what they were told.

              I won't lay claim to who's in the majority in the UK, but there's certainly very strong opposition to mandatory ID cards. It's strong enough that the government is going the stealth route, and bringing it in to new passports (on orders from the US government). It's all very well saying these cards would stop terrorism, but I've yet to hear an expert tell me how a completely clean sleeper cell would be affected in the slightest, unless racist (ahem, racial) profiling was used and law enforcement got lucky. Even then, the idea of a sleeper cell is that it's supposed to be invisible.

              ID cards are about one thing : population control. Religion used to be the weapon of choice in this regard, but over the last 50-100 years, most religions lost any power they might have had. The UK government is going to put tracker bugs in every car under the pretense of a fairer road tax. The reality, is that if you drive somewhere, the state will know where you are. In 2006, there were over half a million under 16's in the UK who had been added to the national DNA database. Many of these have never been convicted of a crime because they were actually innocent. No matter how much overwhelming proof is produced of a childs innocence, their records are retained, and even given to other countries. All that's required here to add you to the DNA database, is for you to be arrested. A plausable fake charge will do. As soon as you're arrested you can be DNA swabbed, and at that point, the state has huge power over you.

              This Real ID thing is another perfectly good example of why you Americans have the 2nd amendment, and why the UK government is determined never to give us a similar law. You're supposed to be the land of the free. The rest of the oppressed "democratic" world is waitng for you guys to take the lead here, before your rights are as pitiful as ours.
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              • #8
                Re: Real ID

                You know, I'm going to speak as the government for just a minute. This is not my opinion but this is just a theory and a thought that Im thinking outloud.....

                Would the mandatory fingerprinting and ID scanning to enter places really be a BAD thing? I mean really, if you think about it, if you arent doing anything wrong then do you really have to worry about anything? Then again on the flip side, think about the crime reduction. Aside from the fact that someone may be able to use a stolen/replicated ID card, if they have to swipe a card to get into the 7-11, what are the odds that they will rob the place. If everyone's fingerprints and DNA were on file from birth, what are the odds that someone will break into your house and clean you out, or worse, rape you wife, girlfriend, daughter, mother.....

                If you live an honest life, what is the fear? We are all for privacy and civil liberties....but at what cost? Would it be so horribly bad to give up a little to gain alot?


                Im thinking that the above statements are probably a replica of what goverment officials are saying to each other when discussing these issues.

                Thoughts on this?
                "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. sigpic

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                • #9
                  Re: Real ID

                  Originally posted by Panz View Post
                  [I][B]Would the mandatory fingerprinting and ID scanning to enter places really be a BAD thing? I mean really, if you think about it, if you arent doing anything wrong then do you really have to worry about anything?
                  If you inser the word "government" before "places" then it's certainly a valid argument. The problem, is that in order to have that kind of security, you have to provide the fingerprints etc to that same government, which will then use it in it's quest for absolute population control.
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                  • #10
                    Re: Real ID

                    Originally posted by Panz View Post
                    Thoughts on this?
                    Well, yeah... Why do we even need search warrants? If you have nothing to hide and are living an honest life, cops should be able to search your home whenever they need to, right?

                    WRONG! This is about the simple erosion of liberty. You're right. A little ID card doesn't seem like much, especially when the federal gov't is merely setting the standards for already existing state ID cards to meet. But what's next?

                    Oh, and I can personally confirm that your sig is not true, no matter how much I wish it were... ;)
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                    • #11
                      Re: Real ID

                      I can see this kind of ID easily attached to other collected private information, like health information and credit ratings.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Real ID

                        Originally posted by Steeler View Post
                        I can see this kind of ID easily attached to other collected private information, like health information and credit ratings.
                        That's a danger too. Also, and I admit I can't figure out HOW yet, there's a private US company that actually owns copyright to every single persons DNA. Given that DNA is becoming more and more common in ID schemes and the associated privacy issues, there's GOT to be some sort of additional danger there.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Real ID

                          Great, yet another thing dependent on computers. I hate anything having to do with government computers. From my military experience, their systems are always conveniently down when I need a new ID or update health care status or whatever. It's always a PITA. Just like some people want the government to take care of our health care. BAD IDEA. I don't like the idea of government having more control over us. Not because of any "Logans Run" or "Gattaca" type fears. It's just that I know from the inside how horribly inefficient and crappy the govt runs beaurocracy. The larger we allow it to get, the more annoying it'll get just to do basic things like deal with the DMV. Until the government can learn to fix it's computer networks and keep them from "going down" on a weekly basis, I don't trust this idea.
                          "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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                          • #14
                            Re: Real ID

                            More incremental encroachments on our liberties as Americans. Yeah yeah yeah, it's in the name of security and all that crap, but where does that end?

                            I realize that it is inevitable that one day the government will know each and every thing people do, buy, or say, but I would like for that to not happen in my lifetime. :(

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                            • #15
                              Re: Real ID

                              I think America needs just a wee bit less security.
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