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  • Problems in the military with the M4

    M4 needs replacement

    How ignorant.

  • #2
    Re: Problems in the military with the M4

    Lets try to put this in context with a computer analogy: (Warning, this will display my ignorance of modern computer hardware. Don't worry, its just an analogy.)

    You currently own a P4 1.6 GHz computer which runs pretty well for what you use it for. Everyone agrees that the P4 2.4 GHz computer is noticeably better, and its sitting on store shelves right now. But the P5 dual-core 3.2 GHz is due to come out any month now, and you've been seeing the ads for it for awhile, and you know that would offer a big framerate boost over the 1.6 or the 2.4 when playing the latest and greatest games. But the release has been delayed already and you aren't really sure when it will be out...

    Do you buy the 2.4 now, or save your money and wait for the dual-core 3.2?

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    • #3
      Re: Problems in the military with the M4

      Seems like military procurement is a vicious cycle.

      They identify the next front runner in whatever category...vehicle, weapon, whatever...and then spend years and millions of dollars on evaluation, testing and revamps. By they time they start getting close to being ready to accept something, it is already behind the curve, and invariably someone says...well why are we getting ready to deploy this when THAT is so much better.

      Add to the mix a couple senators who's states stand to benefit if the newer technology is adopted and bingo...the current front runner is dumped and the process starts all over again.

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      • #4
        Re: Problems in the military with the M4

        A few weeks ago one of the guys at a local shoot had a piston operated upper for one of his ARs. This one was made by POF (the 18" version) and was pretty damn slick. These things aren't cheap, but after a couple of hundred rounds the bolt/bolt carrier assembly looked just like they did before any rounds had gone through the rifle; the internals were clean as a whistle.

        I'd think with heavier ammo (75 grain or heavier) and a piston operated upper, the M4 would be able to provide good service for a while to come. There are certainly a ton of parts available, and there's familiarity with the system.

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        • #5
          Re: Problems in the military with the M4

          This is typical military really.

          I remember the overhaul of the ship I was on in 90 got the most up to date electronics to run the power plants and they had microprocessors!

          During school we learned about "computer memory" that used small metal rings on a wire and other really strange stuff. They taught it because some ships still used this stuff, and this was in '87-'88.

          Of course there is the fact that the equipment did operate without any real problems in adverse conditions for about 25 years.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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          • #6
            Re: Problems in the military with the M4

            Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
            Lets try to put this in context with a computer analogy: (Warning, this will display my ignorance of modern computer hardware. Don't worry, its just an analogy.)

            You currently own a P4 1.6 GHz computer which runs pretty well for what you use it for. Everyone agrees that the P4 2.4 GHz computer is noticeably better, and its sitting on store shelves right now. But the P5 dual-core 3.2 GHz is due to come out any month now, and you've been seeing the ads for it for awhile, and you know that would offer a big framerate boost over the 1.6 or the 2.4 when playing the latest and greatest games. But the release has been delayed already and you aren't really sure when it will be out...

            Do you buy the 2.4 now, or save your money and wait for the dual-core 3.2?
            Only in TG where you can take something "manly" such as guns and turn it into something "nerdy" as computers...JK. Great post dude:)
            "Dirtboy is super awesome, and chicks dig him too!"- Everyone



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            • #7
              Re: Problems in the military with the M4

              The HK416 is a superior weapon, period. An analogy above stated waiting for the next upgrade and that is crap. We have waited for 50 years for an improvement to the basic functionality of the M16 family of rifles and all we ever got was minor aesthetics changes that had nothing to do with the basic operations of the weapon. This is a P100 vs a Pentium Quad Core comparison.

              I could cite you countless bits of test data that show that the reliability of the gas-piston weapons are a world apart from the current family of weapons. The issue surrounding this whole thing is that the Army Acquisition Corp was simply lazy and preferred to waste its time by staying status quo, versus looking at the opportunities and capabilities that the HK416 offer. Allot of this comes down to politics, not money as most would say. How apt would you be if you were a Congressman to loose your Arms Industry to a foreign manufacturer?

              And yes I have been using a 416 for 2 years as my service weapon….
              Last edited by TheBigC; 04-14-2007, 05:03 PM.
              "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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              • #8
                Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                The only thing I don't understand is that if the gun doesn't work then why is it still being used? Get a better gun. Simple.

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                • #9
                  Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                  Originally posted by secret.squirrul View Post
                  The only thing I don't understand is that if the gun doesn't work then why is it still being used? Get a better gun. Simple.
                  That's just it. The AR platform DOES work. But it requires a minimum level of maintenance to continue to do so. I'm not sure about the Army, but rifle cleaning is something that is ingrained in Marines' minds. Dirty rifles will malfunction, regardless of how it's designed or who manufactured it. The fact that a piston operated rifle takes longer to foul will only prolong the inevitable. There's no rifle that is maintenance free. The real problem is that soldiers aren't keeping their rifles clean. M16/M4s don't get too dirty to fire in a day or two. Malfunctions are an indication of laziness. Having a rifle that doesn't need to be cleaned for months at a time would be nice, but it's not going to eliminate the malfunctioning problem if a soldier never cleans his rifle. In fact, the opposite might happen, if soldiers that would normally keep their rifles clean get lazy and lose their cleaning habit.

                  Originally posted by TheBigC View Post
                  The HK416 is a superior weapon, period. An analogy above stated waiting for the next upgrade and that is crap. We have waited for 50 years for an improvement to the basic functionality of the M16 family of rifles and all we ever got was minor aesthetics changes that had nothing to do with the basic operations of the weapon. This is a P100 vs a Pentium Quad Core comparison.
                  That's quite a bit of a stretch. Can you explain to me what additional capabilities the HK416 offers over an M16/M4?
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                  • #10
                    Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                    I have a question.

                    The AK-47 and all it's relatives... How does it compare M4/M16's? (Please forgive me for my ignorance. I know a little bit about hunting rifles and shotguns but not much else.)

                    I have always heard one of it's strengths is it's reliability. Is this just a myth?

                    If it is not a myth why not incorporate some of it's design features?
                    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                      What other changes have they made to it besides using a piston? The first time I even heard of the 416 was when I saw a clip of it from Future Weapons, and the internals looked almost exactly like a 16/4.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                        Originally posted by Barracuda_Magoo View Post
                        What other changes have they made to it besides using a piston? The first time I even heard of the 416 was when I saw a clip of it from Future Weapons, and the internals looked almost exactly like a 16/4.
                        Is this the one they fired straight out of a bucket of water and pulled out from being buried in the sand? I know it was an HK of some type, but not sure if this is the same one. Either way, pretty impressive demonstration.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                          I have a question.

                          The AK-47 and all it's relatives... How does it compare M4/M16's? (Please forgive me for my ignorance. I know a little bit about hunting rifles and shotguns but not much else.)

                          I have always heard one of it's strengths is it's reliability. Is this just a myth?

                          If it is not a myth why not incorporate some of it's design features?
                          The AK uses a piston, so does the HK416. The M16 and derivatives do not use a piston, and the gases act directly on the action to cycle the weapon. The drawback is that the action may get dirty quicker if not properly maintained as Cing mentionned.

                          DB

                          ęThat looks like a really nice house except for that horrible bathroom.Ľ Donrhos

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                          • #14
                            Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post

                            That's quite a bit of a stretch. Can you explain to me what additional capabilities the HK416 offers over an M16/M4?

                            One word - Reliability!!

                            By not using a gas blow back system there is no carbon going into the bolt carrier group.. That is the number one reason for failures.
                            "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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                            • #15
                              Re: Problems in the military with the M4

                              Originally posted by TheBigC View Post
                              One word - Reliability!!

                              By not using a gas blow back system there is no carbon going into the bolt carrier group.. That is the number one reason for failures.
                              Wrong. The number one reason for failures is improper maintenance!

                              Let me tell you about some government owned Steyr AUGs that I'm familier with. I work with some guys that were training me on my newly issued AUG. They were going on and on about how reliable it is. "Oh, this thing will shoot and shoot and shoot and you'll never ever have to even clean it."

                              Wha?

                              That POS little bullpup malfunctioned every couple of hundred rounds or so. Why? Because it was filthy. It hadn't been cleaned in years, if ever. I took it apart and chunks of carbon buildup fell out. Like the size of the eraser on a new pencil! Huge chunks.

                              Now, it could be the guys that were training me were still filled with artificial pride at being the "premiere" agency that was issued these rifles, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I believe that these rifles were reliable before neglected and abused. Now, I trust none of them, even though they have a "superior and more reliable piston operated action". And it's all because some idiots got out of the habit of keeping their weapons clean.
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