Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

    A reason.com article begins exploring foreign policy options come January 2009.

    Originally posted by Learning from Ike
    War, he argued, is a great evil, but it has one indispensable virtue: It brings peace. Too often, well-meaning diplomats or peacekeepers interpose themselves in conflicts that should be left to burn themselves out. Alas, cease-fires and peacekeepers "artificially freeze conflict and perpetuate a state of war indefinitely by shielding the weaker side from the consequences of refusing to make concessions for peace," he wrote. "The final result is to prevent the emergence of a coherent outcome, which requires an imbalance of strength sufficient to end the fighting." In other words, war ends in a stable peace only when one side loses, and understands it has lost. "If the United Nations helped the strong defeat the weak faster and more decisively," Luttwak wrote mischievously, "it would actually enhance the peacemaking potential of war.
    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

  • #2
    Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

    I believe two quotes apply here, both by the same character:

    Originally posted by Lazarus Long
    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at once.
    and

    Originally posted by Lazarus Long
    Peace is an extension of war by political means. Plenty of elbowroom is pleasanter–and much safer.
    War brings a short peace. However, anyone expecting that peace to last forever is foolish. The only way to achieve a true peace is through an unchallengeable totalitarian regime in which the people are stripped of all freedoms and rights, so they are incapable of making war. Justifying war by saying that it brings peace is a load of propaganda garbage meant to steer popularity toward an otherwise unpopular administration. This popularity is derived from people who do not or cannot discern the difference between truth and fairy tales.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

      Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
      I believe two quotes apply here, both by the same character:



      and



      War brings a short peace. However, anyone expecting that peace to last forever is foolish. The only way to achieve a true peace is through an unchallengeable totalitarian regime in which the people are stripped of all freedoms and rights, so they are incapable of making war. Justifying war by saying that it brings peace is a load of propaganda garbage meant to steer popularity toward an otherwise unpopular administration. This popularity is derived from people who do not or cannot discern the difference between truth and fairy tales.
      I hear you complaining and whining, but you're not giving us a solution.

      That's the problem with time wasted reading and studying philosophy. All it brings is more talk and criticism. That doesn't mean what you have said is incorrect, that just means all you are doing is talking about problems without giving us solution.

      I would propose a solution myself, but sadly any solution I ever have for solving any problem that the Human race has involves a nuclear bomb going off. We can't get along as a species and never will.

      Here is how you may call me:
      Ty (Tie), or Tychus. (Tie-cuss)'. Full pronounciation: Tie-can-dur-us
      -Tychandrus

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

        I thought that was Clausewitz? Could be wrong though :)


        "Ok....smoke sometimes works."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

          I'm neither complaining nor whining. You say the problem with philosophy is that it brings criticism and talk. Yet you claim yourself that the only solution you can fathom is something so dire as to be incomprehensible.

          I counter with the simple thought that there is no reasonable solution. You're absolutely correct in the statement that the human race will never get along. People will always have differing ideologies and out of that breeds misunderstanding and malice. This inevitably leads to conflict. What i'm criticizing is people trying to justify that conflict through hostile means. There is no reasonable justification for war. There is no reasonable justification for the unnecessary loss of life. The quote that tybalt put forth is attempting to make a rational argument for killing and being killed in the name of some uncertain and hypothetical future "peace". If theres anything we should have learned through mass media and our exposure to global events is that peace in one place doesnt mean no conflict, and certainly not peace anywhere else.

          Philosophical discussion is a civil means of conflict resolution. I see no problem with that. If level headded people solved problems and/or agreed to disagree quetly over a cup of coffee, tea, beer, whatever in a civilized environment, then we would have something to go on. Unfortunately, humans, being the savages that we are, are far too quick to take to arms to solve disputes and petty squabbles so that they may turn to mass bloodshed.

          Philosophical or not, we will never have peace. Anyone who really believes that peace is a justification for war is deluding themselves. The ends rarely justify the means, and if you dont believe me, ask anyone who knows a fallen soldier how justified the end result made them feel about their friend/brother/father/mother/sister's death.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

            Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
            Justifying war by saying that it brings peace is a load of propaganda garbage meant to steer popularity toward an otherwise unpopular administration. This popularity is derived from people who do not or cannot discern the difference between truth and fairy tales.
            Looks like someone didn't RTFA.
            A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

            "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

              War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                The ends rarely justify the means, and if you dont believe me, ask anyone who knows a fallen soldier how justified the end result made them feel about their friend/brother/father/mother/sister's death.
                My grandfather fought in WWII and lost many close friends in his unit. He got a purple heart and a silver star on D-Day+3 pushing back the Nazis in France. His brother died flying "the Hump" over the Himalayas transporting fuel and supplies as a C-47 pilot. My grandfather is dead now, but he believed that his buddies' and his brother's lives were worth the sacrifice to obtain the end result.

                I have also recently had the privilage of becoming close friends with a B-24 navigator who personally witnessed gunners get ground into hamburger because their ball-turret wouldn't retract before landing. He saw buddies get shot out of the skies, and gunners getting shot out and seperated from the planes. He told me about atrocities that fellow countrymen committed during WWII, but he told me it was all worth it no matter the cost.

                I meet up with my grandfathers surviving war buddies once a year (2 of them left), and they have both told me that they think our generation is a bunch of wusses with the exception of our men and women in uniform. I agree with them. Our politicians and many of our people are a bunch of wimps.
                "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                  I like Ike. Glad you brought him up. I had a class on post world war II history and the professor focused on him.

                  He is probably the most unappreciated leader we have ever had. He had very good insight into not only the politics of nations but also the reaction of men to those politics. He knew of war first hand and what war brought, both the good and bad. He didn't take the men that fought in it for granted, like some presidents do.

                  He warned us about the "Military Industrial Complex" and the dangers it poses.

                  I didn't read the article real close (my night to watch the kids and "Deadliest Catch" is on) but it reminders me of that class.

                  I do think the region has been "contained" for to long. The natural tension that exists, and has existed for a very long time, needs to be released. I don't think that purple fingers are going to release it.

                  Of course you could go even further and say that we should just let Israel and the other nations of the region just go at it. Don't think that is such a good idea. There are limits to any idea, even good ones.
                  Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                    Sometimes I feel like the importance of the Israeli-Palesitinian and Israeli-Arab conflicts are overemphasized.

                    I looked into the Luttwak guy, the fellow who's behind the original post's interesting quotes, and found this video of him. It's pretty long, but who can resist a modern day Dr. Strangelove? He's got a Romanian accent and everything!

                    Luttwak also wrote this piece on the Iraq war. The first section is titled, "Withdraw Now."
                    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                      Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                      Luttwak also wrote this piece on the Iraq war. The first section is titled, "Withdraw Now."
                      I disagree with his position, BUT I must admit that the piece you referred to was extremely well written and had the best arguments I've EVER heard for that side. He was able to present his side without resorting to the ol' "Bush is an idiot" line or something to that effect. Like I said, I don't agree, but a good read none the less.
                      "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                        Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                        Sometimes I feel like the Israeli-Palestinian and Israeli-Arab conflicts are overemphasized.
                        Could be. I do think there are MANY people that think this conflict is part of the end of the world/second coming. And MANY of those are based on religious ideas.

                        To them it isn't just an idea, it is truth.

                        But I am slowly reading this book "Power, Faith and Fantasy" which is a history of America and it's involvement with the region. This whole Zionist thing is a very old idea and has been a source of conflict for a long time.

                        While it may be overemphasized I also think it is greatly oversimplified as well. Especially when it comes to American interest and involvement.

                        I do think that if we and others in the west treated Israel in a more neutral fashion much could be accomplished there. But we need them to do our dirty work I guess. And in turn they use America as well.

                        Nasty little games going on.

                        Going have to come back to that Luttwak article later. Definitely going to need some time for that.
                        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                          Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                          My grandfather fought in WWII and lost many close friends in his unit. He got a purple heart and a silver star on D-Day+3 pushing back the Nazis in France. His brother died flying "the Hump" over the Himalayas transporting fuel and supplies as a C-47 pilot. My grandfather is dead now, but he believed that his buddies' and his brother's lives were worth the sacrifice to obtain the end result.

                          I have also recently had the privilage of becoming close friends with a B-24 navigator who personally witnessed gunners get ground into hamburger because their ball-turret wouldn't retract before landing. He saw buddies get shot out of the skies, and gunners getting shot out and seperated from the planes. He told me about atrocities that fellow countrymen committed during WWII, but he told me it was all worth it no matter the cost.

                          I meet up with my grandfathers surviving war buddies once a year (2 of them left), and they have both told me that they think our generation is a bunch of wusses with the exception of our men and women in uniform. I agree with them. Our politicians and many of our people are a bunch of wimps.
                          Oh, I like you.

                          Here is how you may call me:
                          Ty (Tie), or Tychus. (Tie-cuss)'. Full pronounciation: Tie-can-dur-us
                          -Tychandrus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                            Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                            My grandfather fought in WWII and lost many close friends in his unit. He got a purple heart and a silver star on D-Day+3 pushing back the Nazis in France. His brother died flying "the Hump" over the Himalayas transporting fuel and supplies as a C-47 pilot. My grandfather is dead now, but he believed that his buddies' and his brother's lives were worth the sacrifice to obtain the end result.

                            I have also recently had the privilage of becoming close friends with a B-24 navigator who personally witnessed gunners get ground into hamburger because their ball-turret wouldn't retract before landing. He saw buddies get shot out of the skies, and gunners getting shot out and seperated from the planes. He told me about atrocities that fellow countrymen committed during WWII, but he told me it was all worth it no matter the cost.

                            I meet up with my grandfathers surviving war buddies once a year (2 of them left), and they have both told me that they think our generation is a bunch of wusses with the exception of our men and women in uniform. I agree with them. Our politicians and many of our people are a bunch of wimps.
                            I guess it depends on the old farts you are talking to.

                            Well, not really but kinda.

                            I met with my grandpa and a bunch of his buddies once before he died. I was still in the Navy. He served in the army as almost all of them did. I heard all kinds of war stories that day. Very good day indeed.

                            Many times they poked fun at the easy lives we lead today. Many of their families where devastated by the great depression as well.

                            But then one of them would pipe up with "But we did it so you guys didn't have to suffer."

                            They are called the "Great Generation" for a reason. But they didn't plan on or want to be this. It was forced upon them.

                            So if we are wusses we are wusses because we can be. They would have been wusses if they could have been. But they couldn't avoid the challenges.

                            If the current war was really a War in the sense of WWI and WWII. If it actually needed the people of America to sacrifice as those wars required, I think most, if not all, would.

                            But the fact is those running this war have not asked us to sacrifice anything. They have asked us to continue shopping and living life as if nothing has happened.

                            Instead of fighting this war with the weight of America behind it, we are fighting it with the weight of Americas Military behind it. This is only a fraction of our strength. And this is the point that Ike (the article) was making.

                            If the American people are loosing interest and or retreating from adversity it is because they are not really apart of that adversity. They are not fighting. It is only their children that are fighting.

                            This is, in part, the fear of the "Military Industrial Complex" Ike wanted us to recognize.
                            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Post Bush Cleanup: Doves, Hawks, or Reptiles?

                              Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                              The quote that tybalt put forth is attempting to make a rational argument for killing and being killed in the name of some uncertain and hypothetical future "peace".
                              While I didn't read the entire article yet, I think you misunderstood the quote. To me, it seems to be saying that helping out the weaker side in war simply to look like a "good guy" ends up making things worse in the end than either a) staying out of the conflict completely and letting it resolve naturally or b) helping out the side that is fairly obviously going to win in order to make the conflict shorter. It's basically a "stay out of it, or make sure the side you decide to help wins totally and completely" policy.

                              We've seen what "being the good guy" has gotten us in the past 50 or so years. A substantial number of times we've jumped in to help out the underdog have led to tense stalemates or defeats/withdrawls at the cost of American (and other) lives.
                              [squadl]
                              "I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X