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  • How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

    The purpose of this post isn't to insight more philosophical discussions of should or shouldn't we get our troops out of Iraq, I'm simply asking you smarty pants out there what is the proper way to end the war in Iraq? Does congress decide when and how? if so how? or is it the sole responsibility of the president to decide when its over?

    The democrats are trying to put the pressure of timetables to pull our troops out as part of the new budget, but is that the only way they can push for an end to the conflict?
    Last edited by NorCalRoach; 05-19-2007, 01:00 AM.
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  • #2
    Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

    At the moment I'm pretty sure that's the only option Congress has. To put forth a new budget that the president will not veto with the hopes that it contains binding timetables for withdrawl. Unfortunately, that doesn't look like it will happen. They're working on an unbinding bill that with "benchmarks" I believe. They lack the votes to veto the President's veto, so the American people are pretty much at the whim of this nutball of a Commander in Chief.
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    • #3
      Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

      Let me frame my question a little better: what is the process/options to end a war? Whose responsibility is it?
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      • #4
        Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

        I have had this same question for awhile.

        I realize that for the president to "send troops to war" he needs the approval of congress. (I know there are options but stay with me.) Once congress has given that approval is the president the only person that can end said war?

        Even if congress cuts off funding that doesn't mean that the President has to end the war. He could simply tell the generals to forage for supplies. Now I know this is not likely but from everything that I have heard this is possible.

        My question, and I think NorCalRoach's, is can the war be legally ended by somebody other than the president?
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
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        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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        • #5
          Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

          I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
          Do or do not, there is no try....
          -- Yoda, Dagobah

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          • #6
            Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

            The war won't be ended by THIS president. He's made that much clear. Nor, your question has no clear cut answer unfortunately.
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            • #7
              Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

              override of a veto - The process by which each chamber of Congress votes on a bill vetoed by the President. To pass a bill over the President's objections requires a two-thirds vote in each Chamber. Historically, Congress has overridden fewer than ten percent of all presidential vetoes.


              http://www.senate.gov/reference/glos...lnk&cd=2&gl=us

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              • #8
                Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                The answer is of course: just respawn at the UCB :row__593:
                Haha - option 1: you wait until the democrats get elected and then put it on their plate. And pooh pooh them all the way out.
                Or option 2, you could slowly retreat and ship the troops out - while mayhem ensues and the terrorists take over the areas left behind. Declare a new war on terror in some other nation.
                The French and old Europe will probably be too cool for 'I told you so', but the little mistake cost only hundreds of billions and was a major boost to international terrorism, and it didn't really secure the oil supply but made the west the enemy of muslim-dom throwing them into the arms of the Chinese in the future. So not much harm done. Thanks Mr President.

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                • #9
                  Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                  Originally posted by marstein View Post
                  The answer is of course: just respawn at the UCB :row__593:
                  Haha - option 1: you wait until the democrats get elected and then put it on their plate. And pooh pooh them all the way out.
                  Or option 2, you could slowly retreat and ship the troops out - while mayhem ensues and the terrorists take over the areas left behind. Declare a new war on terror in some other nation.
                  The French and old Europe will probably be too cool for 'I told you so', but the little mistake cost only hundreds of billions and was a major boost to international terrorism, and it didn't really secure the oil supply but made the west the enemy of muslim-dom throwing them into the arms of the Chinese in the future. So not much harm done. Thanks Mr President.
                  Lol...nice Marstien. I guess judging from the response so far, we aren't sure how to end a war. I'm going to try and re-educate myself on the Federal system (checks and balances). The underlying question really was is the responsibility to withdraw our troops a presidential function or is a function of congress. What was the process for either branch? If it is the president's- then what does he have to do? If its congress, what do they have to do?
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                  • #10
                    Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                    http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/0512luttwak.pdf

                    There ya go. Link contains the actual policy prescription, not how to get it through the halls of Congress.
                    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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                    • #11
                      Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                      Why not do the right thing? Let the person Senate confirmed (81-0) determine the strategy for pullout. Gen Petraeus was entrusted by the American people to run the war. The whole problem now is we have these arm chair quarterbacks in the states that determine what is best when they really have no clue what the climate is like in Iraq.

                      The second you cut your funding, you will alienate your armed forces in a manner you do not want. By cutting the funding as a method of withdrawal, you than take necessary money away from basic survival things, Soldiers are than in danger.

                      I am all for pulling out of Iraq in a reasonable fashion, but when politics rears its ugly head and tries to do these type of thing you solve nothing. Come up with a reasonable pull out date in the future that allows for chance for stability and does not put our troops in any unnecessary danger. By using them as a pawn in game of politics, you will cause the loss of lives.
                      Last edited by TheBigC; 05-19-2007, 12:48 PM.
                      "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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                      • #12
                        Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                        You're right, Petraeus is the quaterback in Iraq. We, the American citizens, are the team owners. And our politicians are the coaching staff. So the questions are: What do the owners want the coaches to do? How do we get the coaches to formulate a good plan in accordance with the owners' wishes? And finally, how will the QB execute?
                        A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                        "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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                        • #13
                          Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                          Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                          http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/0512luttwak.pdf

                          There ya go. Link contains the actual policy prescription, not how to get it through the halls of Congress.
                          Thanks Tybalt. The document is informative, but it still argues: lets get the country stable and its neighbors onboard before we pull out. That's fair; however, I think we're all a little confused about how exactly does our government initiate a pull out or an end to the war in terms of an administrative process, not to be mistaken with a political process. I'm more curious now than when I started this thread. I'm doing a little research to figure this out. I've been trying to pay attention to what is going on at Capital Hill in regards to congress strong arming the Bush administration to approve a budget with requirements for timetables. I started to question whether this is congress' only alternative to end the war if that is in fact what their intention is. I can't pretend to be an expert on federal government agencies/branches. If the president doesn't want to end the war and congress can't end the war, who can? The people? how?
                          .

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                          • #14
                            Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                            To the best of my knowledge, the power to command the armed forces is 95% in the hands of the President. He needs approval of congress to declare War on another sovereign nation, but as long as we aren't trying to declare war on anyone, the President can do what he likes and the only way to override him is to elect a new president.

                            Currently, we are not at war with Iraq. The Sovereign Government of Iraq is perfectly happy to have our forces remain there, even if some of its citizens disagree. Therefore, legally speaking, the President doesn't need any authorization from anyone to keep the troops there forever.

                            Technically, congress can cut funding to the military. However, I don't think they can actually cut "Iraq war funding" specifically. They just cut "funding for the military", and then the military war planners get to figure out whether they can afford to continue operations on a reduced budget, or whether they can scrounge up some money by halting some other programs.


                            The Short Answer:
                            You get the troops out of Iraq by electing an anti-war Democrat as President in 2008

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                            • #15
                              Re: How do we get our troops out of Iraq?

                              There is actually a sticking point to consider in terms of technicalities and wording. I believe we currently have a "Police Action" going on in Iraq with the actual the allowed military action being concluded several years ago with the surrender of the Iraqi government to the US.

                              A War is an engagement officially instigated by Congress and under the control of Congress. It starts with a formal declaration by Congress and ends with the surrender or negotiation of an end to action via peace treaty.

                              Example: The Vietnam War didn't start out as a war, but a movement of troops brought about by the President's power as Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces. It was called a war later either because Congress declared on North Vietnam (my history is hazy at the moment if there ever was an official declaration) or because it would look bad for the President to say "We lost thousands of troops because I ordered them in".

                              For another fun fact the "War on Terrorism" is actually presidential vigilantism because Congress can't officially declare war on the world in order to end terrorism. There needs to be a specific party to declare war upon before it officially becomes a war and war powers are given.

                              Originally posted by Wikipedia
                              Basis of Legality
                              There remain underlying questions about its constitutionality (though not a formal declaration of war) consistent with the provisions of the resolution. The reports to Congress required of the President have been drafted to state that they are "consistent with" the War Powers Resolution rather than "pursuant to" so as to take into account the Presidential position that the Resolution is unconstitutional.

                              One argument for the unconstitutionality of the War Powers Resolution — Philip Bobbitt's in "War Powers: An Essay on John Hart Ely's War and Responsibility: Constitutional Lessons of Vietnam and Its Aftermath," Michigan Law Quarterly 92, no. 6 (May 1994): 1364–1400 — runs as follows: "The power to make war is not an enumerated power" and the notion that to "declare" war is to "commence" war is a "contemporary textual preconception"; the Framers of the Constitution believed that statutory authorization was the route by which the United States would be committed to war, and that 'declaration' was meant for only total wars, as shown by the history of the Quasi-War with France (1798–1800); in general, constitutional powers are not so much separated as "linked and sequenced"; Congress's control over the armed forces is "structured" by appropriation, while the president commands; thus the act of declaring war should not be fetishized. (Bobbitt, the nephew of Lyndon Johnson, also argues that "A democracy cannot… tolerate secret policies" because they undermine the legitimacy of governmental action.)

                              A second constitutionality argument concerns a possible breach of the 'separation of powers' doctrine. The legislature may be impeding the executive in carrying out the Oath of Office. "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability; preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." (US Constitution, Article 2, Section 1, Clause 8) This type of constitutional controversy is similar to one that occurred under President Andrew Johnson with the Tenure of Office Act (1867). In that instance, the Legislative branch attempted to control the removal of Executive branch officers.

                              IRAQ LIBERATION ACT OF 1998:

                              In 1998 both houses of Congress (at the time, both controlled by Republicans) created the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998" (Sponsored by Rep Gilman) to authorize the president (then Bill Clinton) to remove Saddam Hussein from office and put a democracy in Iraq. The act severely limited President Clinton's methods to remove Saddam from power. It did not authorize Clinton to use military force for this purpose. It was designed to aid Iraqi insurgents to risk their own lives and take control of their own country. The president was required to inform Congress within 15 days before giving aid (funding TV or radio propaganda, humanitarian aid, military training, etc). President Clinton signed it into law.

                              AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE IN AFGHANISTAN, JANUARY 3, 2002 (SJ RES 23):

                              Both houses of Congress (Republican-controlled House, Democrat-controlled Senate) issued this "statutory authorization" (based upon Section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution) for the use of military force, in Afghanistan, based on the argument that, after the Sept. 11, 2001 attack, Al Qaeda and any person or nation (such as the Taliban leaders of Afghanistan) who allowed them on their soil or aided their cause, represented a continuing "threat to national security and foreign policy of the United States."

                              AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ, H.J. Res. 114, Public Law 107-243, 107th Congress, OCTOBER 16, 2002:

                              Joint sessions of Congress (Republican-controlled House, Democrat-controlled Senate) authorized Republican President George W. Bush to "take appropriate action" to "bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations."

                              The Authorization of Military Force in Iraq also included a reference to the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998" (Public Law 105-338) calling for the replacement of Saddam Hussein by a democratic government.

                              On December 20, 2005, ABC News reported that vice-president Dick Cheney had described the War Powers Resolution as an "infringement on the authority of the president."
                              Therefore the fastest and easiest way to end the action in Iraq is for congress to declare that Iraq is in compliance with its international obligation as per the original intent of the invasion and that a democratic government is in place (even if its not 100% effective). That would end the the presidential war powers and remove Bush's ability to keep troops in Iraq without an offical declaration or war.

                              Or so I think...
                              My sanity is not in question...
                              It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                              Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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