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  • Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19176808/

    A man in London has been found guilty of murder for an "honor killing" in which he strangled his daughter for falling in love with someone who was not the pre-arranged husband she was supposed to marry. There are currently over 100 homicides under investigation as potential "honor killings." It makes me wonder if these hardline Islamic fundamentalists truly have a place in our liberal Western societies. Should anything be done beyond regular justice? Please discuss. And when I ask about Muslims in our society, I don't mean the normal ones. I mean the hardcore ones trying to impose Sharia law and such in our own countries.
    "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

  • #2
    Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

    Murder is murder. However, these cases should probably be looked at under the "hate crimes" laws for extra sentencing in certain jurisdictions. The reason for this is such crimes have the intentional effect of threatening an entire population (women with fundamentalist families).

    The "100 homicides" figure smells bad. How many of those were a case of the police investigating the death of a woman with a fundamentalist family and therefore simply considering the possibility, subsequently ruling it out?

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    • #3
      Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

      Yes they can.

      Yes they should.

      And honor killings are less about religion than they are a cultural phenomenon.
      A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

      "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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      • #4
        Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

        Agreed.

        The alternative premise, that certain cultural groups are incapable of becoming a part of our society, implies certain actions that betray the stated principles of that society.
        In game handle: Steel Scion
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        • #5
          Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

          It has been said by more learned people than I that we are in a holy war with Islam. They (Radical Islamists) believe that other religions are an affront to Islam and should not be tolerated by true believers.
          The question is how can western societies that are multi-cultural diverse co-exist with those that believe that co-existence is immoral and will kill to stay separate?
          How can we rationalize being open societies and accept that there are those who want nothing of our culture but want to live in our countries?

          It’s a hard line to take but this is where I stand. Acculturate/assimilate or go back to where you came.
          We almost had a second civil war, with the Mormons over this problem on the late 1800s

          Sarcoma (who believes being yourself should only go so far)
          Sarcoma.

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          • #6
            Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

            I believe that religion and regular law should not mix. Thus, if someone believes that it is OK to kill a family member because she married someone else or was raped or whatever, it doesn't exclude them from being punished by the law of the country in which the crime was committed. I think the problem only rears its head when either: 1) someone feels their religion is more important than the law of the land, which seems to be the case here, or 2) the law is very arbitrary and meant to entrap those unfamiliar with the law or the punishment for the law is exorbitant.

            Case in point for number 2:
            You walk down the street and spit on the sidewalk. The village in which this occurred has a law that requires execution for spitting on the sidewalk.

            Another case for number 2:
            Your driving through a state in which you do not live. You get pulled over by the cops and are given a ticket for reckless driving, speeding, etc. Anything the cop can cite you for he does simply because you are an out of state driver and cannot fight the ticket, nor did you know that between the hours of 8am and 8pm, between stop lights on a certain highway the speed limit is 45 rather than the posted 65. Of course, you are going 75, keeping up with traffic and maintaining your 10 mph gap over the current speed limit. In this case, you are guilty of speeding but does that crime warrant a $500+ ticket? I don't know but the cop sure wrote one for my friend.

            To sum it up, I think fundamentalist Muslims can practice their religion and fit into society without problems. But they have to realize that their religion is secondary to the law of the land which is hard for them because in many countries that are predominantly Muslim, there is no separation of law and religion.

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            • #7
              Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

              They can stay over there... we are full. Thank you.

              Murder is murder and if we can keep more people who murder for shameless reasons as stated above away, then they can stay away.

              ()

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              • #8
                Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                The whole premise is incorrect , we assume they'd like to assimilate into our society. They don't , they tolerate us until they are the majority and then rule by tyrany . Name one Democratic Islamic state in which the muslims are more than 66 % of the population ? Never assume that they have the same intentions or core values as ourselves. You are a second class citezen to them . A servant a slave or worse , as they are taught . If you doubt this ask any Coptic Christen out of Eygpt. They don't life the same as we do , that's what made 9/11 possible . We didn't imagine for a second that a group of individuals would scarifce themselves , the way they did , and for what ?
                I want all those who get to know me
                To become admirers or my enemies

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                • #9
                  Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                  How does this compare to certain Christian parents preventing their children from receiving medical treatment under the premise that "God will take care of it"?
                  Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                  snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                  Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                    Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                    How does this compare to certain Christian parents preventing their children from receiving medical treatment under the premise that "God will take care of it"?
                    It doesn't... and you make it sound a little more extreme than it actually is.

                    ()

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                    • #11
                      Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                      Originally posted by Chewy View Post
                      It doesn't... and you make it sound a little more extreme than it actually is.
                      Is it fair to dismiss a comment directed at some extreme elements of Christianity? Just this spring two premature babies died in B.C. because their parents did exactly what Scratch described. So I think there are plenty of religious fundamentalist groups that could be included in this discussion, as they are not all Muslim. Please remember that not all Muslims are represented by these fools, that is the first mistake, and one that the majority of Muslim people roll their eyes at in disgust. War.Monger could have just as easily asked us the same question of Pat Robertson or the Westboro Baptist Church people. Many of these folks represent the minority of extremists that seek to spread hatred at all costs, and they are not confined to one religion. Canada's worst terrorist attack was carried out by Seik extremists, and we can have no room for people that want justify killing by invoking God, regardless of what flavour of the month they are.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                        I'm sorry, I just realized I was a bit vague. My question isn't regarding nut jobs that are already here. I should have specified that I meant Islamic fundamentalist IMMIGRANTS.
                        "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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                        • #13
                          Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                          Any type of fundamentalism is at odds with modern society. I believe that as long as people remain 'fundamentalists', they will not be able to assimilate into society, just as a KKK member cannot assimilate into the NAACP.

                          The burden is on them to make adjustments to themselves, and I doubt they will or are capable of such adjustments. So it then becomes a battle of attrition -- fundamentalism vs. the rest of modern, free-thinking society. Over generations progress can be made, but certainly not in any short-term timetable -- say, less than 20 years or so.

                          3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                            How does this compare to certain Christian parents preventing their children from receiving medical treatment under the premise that "God will take care of it"?
                            The difference being that the parent who believes God will heal their child is doing it out of love for their child because they believe Doctors will do more harm than good. I'm not saying it's right, but that's what they feel.

                            The "honor" killing is murder done out of anger, insecurity and tribalist egoism. I'm sure the parent also believes that their child is quite rightly going to hell.

                            Big difference I think. The only vague connection is religion, but as someone else mentioned an honor killing is more cultural than religious.
                            New to TG?

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                            • #15
                              Re: Could/Should Islamic Fundamentalists assimilate into a Western Society

                              Thanks, Squid, that's an interesting distinction.

                              So it seems that fundamentalist Christians kill or hurt to "help" (eg. temporary torture during the Inquisition to save one's soul from eternal damnation), while Islamic fundamentalists don't have such an altruistic motive.

                              With a common Jewish root, how did Islam and Christianity diverge so much?
                              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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