Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sicko - spoilers

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sicko - spoilers

    I was just on another thread and I did not want to further add to the hijacking so I'll post my thoughts on this one.

    Hopefully those commenting on the movie have actually seen it and are prepared to argue based on what you have seen rather than what someone else has wrote or told you about.

    I saw the movie yesterday and some particular scenes really stood out for me:

    - The man stitching up his own knee because he could not afford health care or treatment illustrated how low we have sunk in this country.

    -The dumping of the patient(s) - (it's happened more than once as I live in LA and have read about this repeatly) at a local mission and left to fend for herself.

    -The couple forced to live in their daughters basement because of the husbands heart attacks.

    -Senator Bill Frist proudly claiming that Al-Qadia suspests in Gitmo are getting better treatment than many Americans would receive.

    -The statement by an English doctor that he would never work in a health care system where people are denied because they could not pay.

    -The American who snaps his shoulder crossing the street on Abby Road doing a hand-stand and is charged something like $15 or $20 for his treatment.

    -The injured golfer who is a member (or votes) of the Conservative party of Canada who could not imagine a health care industry like the United States.

    Moore should have included the countless fund raisers in the US for patients who cannot afford medical treatment. That's a sure sign of a broken system.
    |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
    "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
    - Check me out on The Onion
    - I'm on the local news!

  • #2
    Re: Sicko - spoilers

    I haven't seen the movie. I'll just wait till it hits showtime or HBO. But basically, here's what I feel the American health care system boils down to:

    "Hey, we suck at health care. What's Canada up to?"
    "Nation-wide free health-care."
    "Oh yea, sounds good... wait.... that sounds suspicious."
    "Yea, it's like Socialism."
    "Socialism?"
    "Yea, kind of like communism"
    "COMMONISTSS RAWR!"
    ::sounds of gunfire::

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sicko - spoilers

      The thing I don't like about his movies is that they're all one sided. Give the other side of the story and let people decide for themselves, rather than relying on emotional story points to get your point across. I'm not saying he's not right in some of his points, I just don't like the way he presents his side without taking into account opposite points of view trying to give a sense of impartiality to his 'documentary'. I haven't seen the movie yet, just my view from his previous films.
      Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
      Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sicko - spoilers

        Your definition of "broken" seems to be summed up pretty well by that doctors quote:
        "I would never work in a health care system where people are denied because they could not pay."

        You know what? There's nothing stopping that doctor from coming over here and offering people free health care without charging. That would solve all his problems with people being turned away because they couldn't pay. But he's not going to do that, because whether or not he wants to admit it, he wants to be PAID for his work.

        So what he really wants is this: If the patient can't pay, someone else should be forced to pay instead. And your definition of "broken" is "any system that does not force the taxpayers to pay the medical costs for the poor", right?

        My definition of broken is a little different.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sicko - spoilers

          one thing that spoils alot of points he makes about being tossed in the street yada yada, those people went to the wrong place for treatment. if you go into an EMERGENCY (not clinic,) room, and have a symptom that needs to be checked. Chest pain possibly broken hand/leg gunshot wound you name it. BY LAW they are REQUIRED to treat you. if you can not pay. there is nothing the hospital can do about it. they can not deny you treatment if you go to an emergency room. they can not sue you if you do not pay after going to an emergency room.

          in other words. if you go to an emergency room for something worthy of treatment, snapped shoulder, knee suture whatever. not a personal checkup as it will get you laughed at and they'll point you to where you need to go where you DO have to pay or have insurance to cover it. but like I said. if you're admitted through an emergency room for an emergency or whatever. they will treat you without questions as to billing, and you will not have to pay, if you can not afford it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sicko - spoilers

            Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
            Your definition of "broken" seems to be summed up pretty well by that doctors quote:
            "I would never work in a health care system where people are denied because they could not pay."

            You know what? There's nothing stopping that doctor from coming over here and offering people free health care without charging. That would solve all his problems with people being turned away because they couldn't pay. But he's not going to do that, because whether or not he wants to admit it, he wants to be PAID for his work.

            So what he really wants is this: If the patient can't pay, someone else should be forced to pay instead. And your definition of "broken" is "any system that does not force the taxpayers to pay the medical costs for the poor", right?

            My definition of broken is a little different.
            Did you see the movie? If the answer is yes, critique away. If the answer is no, go see the film and post again.
            |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
            "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
            - Check me out on The Onion
            - I'm on the local news!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sicko - spoilers

              I dispute your assertion that only those who watch Moore's propaganda should be allowed to comment on the issue. If we cannot agree on what the system SHOULD look like when working perfectly, what does it matter what we say about evidence that it DOESNT work perfectly?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sicko - spoilers

                Luckily I'm not a movie critic so I don't have to sit through it. I have, however, been reading some of the articles critical of it.

                http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/artic...58/story.jhtml

                Not nearly as scathing but it does point out some interesting items.
                http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28...eck/index.html
                "Sicko" also ignores a handful of good things about the American system. Believe it or not, the United States does rank highest in the patient satisfaction category. Americans do have shorter wait times than everyone but Germans when it comes to nonemergency elective surgery such as hip replacements, cataract removal or knee repair.
                Of course he doesn't have to try and be objective in his "documentaries". He's free to ignore whatever facts he wants to ignore - its his movie. But I don't any use for it.

                EDIT: At this point most of the general population has an opinion on Moore himself. If you limit your discussion to only people that have seen the movie then you're going to have a group of people that generally agree with Moore. So basically a political talk radio show where all the callers agree with the host. I assume that's not what you're looking for here.
                Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                ...and other distractions of various levels.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sicko - spoilers

                  Originally posted by Pistos View Post
                  So basically a political talk radio show where all the callers agree with the host. I assume that's not what you're looking for here.
                  Now why would you assume something like that? ;)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sicko - spoilers

                    Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                    I dispute your assertion that only those who watch Moore's propaganda should be allowed to comment on the issue. If we cannot agree on what the system SHOULD look like when working perfectly, what does it matter what we say about evidence that it DOESNT work perfectly?
                    Your struggling here. How can you debate a film you have not seen?


                    Pistos - to your point, I could care less if you agree with Moore or not. I'd like a disussion based on people who have seen the film. Plenty of people view Moore's films without agreeing with them.
                    |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
                    "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
                    - Check me out on The Onion
                    - I'm on the local news!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sicko - spoilers

                      I am not debating his facts. I am debating his premise. And yours. I do not need to sit through 2 hours of propaganda in order to question your premise.

                      However, if you only wish to talk to someone who HAS sat through the whole thing, then I invite you to check out Pistos' first link above. They watched the whole thing, reviewed it, and tore it to pieces. Have fun.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sicko - spoilers

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        I am not debating his facts. I am debating his premise. And yours. I do not need to sit through 2 hours of propaganda in order to question your premise.

                        However, if you only wish to talk to someone who HAS sat through the whole thing, then I invite you to check out Pistos' first link above. They watched the whole thing, reviewed it, and tore it to pieces. Have fun.
                        I'll throw you a life vest. What premise of a movie you haven't seen are you questioning?
                        |TG-9th| TheFatKidDeath
                        "Born to Party, Forced to Work."
                        - Check me out on The Onion
                        - I'm on the local news!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sicko - spoilers

                          Originally posted by TheFatKidDeath View Post
                          Your struggling here. How can you debate a film you have not seen?


                          Pistos - to your point, I could care less if you agree with Moore or not. I'd like a disussion based on people who have seen the film. Plenty of people view Moore's films without agreeing with them.
                          No problem - its your thread. I borrowed a copy of his last movie since I refuse to contribute to his bank account and that was the last one I'll watch. My point was that as polarizing a figure as he is that the vast majority of people that will drop down 10 bucks to see his movie are people that are on the same page as him. That doesn't make for much of a two-sided discussion.
                          Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
                          Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
                          ...and other distractions of various levels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sicko - spoilers

                            Let me preface this by saying that I really really hate Michael Moore's works. After seeing his previous films in classes and such, then following up by reading lots and lots about them, not only do I feel that he lacks any kind of real talent, but he also lacks integrity. He does live interviews and then clips and cuts them so that the words that people say suit his needs. He doesnt show the whole interview uncut, because many times the questions wouldnt have wound up the way that he wanted them to.

                            So heres Sicko. Lets take a look at what good he's doing by this one:
                            -He's telling everyone that the US healthcare system sucks.
                            -He's telling everyone that they probably cant afford healthcare.
                            -He's telling everyone that doctors and medical practitioners are nothing but greedy, money hoarding buffoons who are mostly incompetent to practice and will run up the bill just so they get rich.
                            -He's making everyone petrified of going to the hospital.

                            Now, I HAVE seen the movie, but I agree that even people who havent have the right to express their opinion. This is especially true seeing as you pointed out a lot of the major topics of the movie (you did give spoilers) and people are free to comment on those alone, in addition to anything else they feel fit to.

                            Here's where I'm pissed. This man has singlehandedly tried to put a black mark on my profession and those of thousands of people like me. I'm an RN. I spend 85% of my waking life in the hospital. I find this movie insulting on several levels.

                            First off, the comments made about emergency care earlier in the thread are ABSOLUTELY correct. If you go to the emergency room, the staff is required by law to treat you, regardless of whether or not you can pay. Now, after they have stabilized your condition, they can refuse to treat you further based on non-payment, but thats life. If you go to a homeless shelter, they can choose to feed you, but it's their prerogative to cut you off if you try to come back for seconds. Same principle.

                            Second, yes, health care is expensive. Very expensive. But you can get medical coverage. I dont even have medical through my hospital. I have medical through a third party company which I pay approximately 100 dollars a month for. There was no physical required, I didnt have submit my medical records, nothing. I pay my premiums and get treatment. Now, lots of people would complain that it's expensive to pay 100 bucks a month for medical. But you know what, If I go in for major surgery, say like a hernia, which would run an uninsured patient about 10-12k, it costs me less than a thousand dollars. So, 100 bucks a month vs ten thousand on the chance that I have a medical problem. Makes sense to me.

                            Next, He makes a big deal out of the incompetencies of doctors and medical professionals. This is where I really get steamed. How many of you work 60+ hours a week? How many of you are on-call 24 hours a day? How many of you have to be party to some of the most gruesome and gut wrenching sights known to man? Not many. This is what doctors and nurses do for a living. We work extremely long hours, have to cope with pain and suffering, have to deal with often hysterical and very very often nasty (read: overly irritated, mean, crude, bigoted, etc.) patients. And why do we do it? So that people can go about their lives. Thats right, so they can LIVE. It gets hard, it gets tedious, and it gets trying. But we press on. Yes, mistakes are made, but the rate at which they are made is MUCH lower than any other profession there is. The only difference is that when we make a mistake, it costs someone. If a plumber screws up fixing your sink, you get water over the floor. If we give you the wrong drugs at the hospital, you can die. So we're scrutinized more.

                            Next, the whole bit about other countries having it so much better...yeah, well we have it better in all aspects, top to bottom. Every profession (read: real profession, not sweeping the floor for minimum wage) pays better in the united states. As a result of this, costs are higher. I make bank as a nurse. But I also have to deal with the stuff I pointed out above. So yeah, its expensive to have me employed, therefore, its more expensive overall to treat the patients. Also, if you look at it in that perspective, sure it only costs 20 bucks to get your arm fixed in london, but let me tell you, I'd be getting paid a fraction of what I get paid here and wouldnt be able to afford to attend the graduate school I'm currently in. And Canada? dont get me started. Sure, healthcare is free, but it takes forever and a day to get in to see a doctor.

                            What it boils down to is this: Americans are lazy and always look to point the finger. Because of endless lawsuits, insane prices for medical equipment and supplies, trying to maintain a decent standard of living for the employees, medicine is a hell of an expensive business. So the consumer is forced to pay. Sure you can stitch yourself up at home when it costs money at a hospital, but you know what, I can cook myself a dozen hamburgers at home for the price of one "extra value meal" at mcdonalds. But nobody whines about that.

                            As a result of all of that, plus the inherent laziness of americans, we have people whining about healthcare, how they cant afford it, or they cant get to it, or something is wrong with it. I'm a college student who is 80k in debt, living in a two bedroom apartment with my younger brother because I cant afford any place better. But you know what, if I get hurt or sick, I'm paid for. It's prioritizing. We lack the ability to do that as a country. THATS whats wrong with the system. America is an endless land of opportunity if you make it so. I know people from all walks of life and all backgrounds who have risen over adversity to make something of themselves and take care of themselves and their own. If you cant afford medical insurance, you're simply not trying hard enough. It's cold and merciless to say, but it's true. TANSTAAFL. Look it up.

                            I'm not going to say any more in this particular post because I'm too steamed and i'm running off topic. Maybe more later.

                            EDIT: just for reference, let me sum up the cost to the hospital for one day of keeping me (one of hundreds of employees) employed:
                            My pay: 56.25/hr. x 12 hours
                            5 Pairs of gloves (average) per hour: 75 cents x 12 hours.
                            Utilities for the section of the hospital I work in: approximately $4 per hour x 12 hours.
                            Instruments and materials I use, such as bedpans, gauze, IV's, bandages, dressings, tape, various medical instruments: about $95.
                            Cost of bedsheets, scrubs and laundry for my patients per day (assuming I have a full load of people): $165 on the low side.
                            Sterilization and cleaning costs of the rooms I work in: $26
                            Total cost: $1018.
                            Thats just for me. Theres 750+ people that work in my hospital.
                            Now, I got all of those costs directly from my employer. They give them to everyone who works here. It's different for different parts of the hospital. For example, pediatrics is cheaper than the ER or the ICU. I didnt really believe it, but I took the time to count it up one day and did a little retail research. I went to CVS and looked at the prices for everything I could buy there that I use in one day. The hopsital pays about 95 bucks. At CVS, the bill added up to over $260.
                            So hmm, why is medical care so expensive....
                            Last edited by Ferris Bueller; 07-06-2007, 08:18 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sicko - spoilers

                              So who thinks Healthcare in America is just peachy keen?
                              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X