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  • If support then why not serve?

    All right, wanted to bring this up. Pretty much this guy would go around asking College Students if they supported the War on Terror and the War in Iraq. If they said yes, then he would ask "Then why aren't you over there fighting?" or "Are you going to Enlist?" Then they would give their reason why. Linky: http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...tml&frame=true

    So the point that the guy is making is you can't support your troops who are fighting if you aren't going to fight yourself. And a lot of people bring this up when I talk about the war. They will say "Well, if you support them why aren't to serving?" I personally think this is a stupid philosophy, it's like asking do you support firefighters putting out fires, then asking why aren't you a firefighter yourself then.

    What do you guys think?

  • #2
    Re: If support then why not serve?

    I think if they needed me over there fighting, I'd do it...but they don't need me. They have people who are much better at that sort of thing than I am, and I am much better at other jobs that are sitting right here. We need all types. Not just soldiers, but also people running the economy back home who are making the money that pays them.

    In short, I agree with you--its a stupid philosophy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: If support then why not serve?

      Originally posted by FatCobra View Post
      asking College Students if they supported the War on Terror and the War in Iraq.
      Nope. Trick question.

      Sorry if it offends but Iraq has no link to 9/11 and never has. Even back when we were looking for those ever elusive WMDs there was no real link. So, no I dont support TWAT (the war on terror) in Iraq.

      That said, I respect and appreciate soldiers for the job they do. It is the toughest job in the world. My beef is with the numbskulls running the show.

      I love seeing people like this squirm. Id love to ask Bush in person where the hell he was during those 2 years he was awol from the Air national guard.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: If support then why not serve?

        You're missing the point of the thread, freekyE. He's not asking "Do you support the war in Iraq." We know full well we have lots of people here who don't support the war in Iraq.

        The question he's asking here is, "Is serving in the military a pre-requisite for supporting the war?" The linked article is attempting to make fun of everyone who supports the war who hasn't signed up for the infantry, claiming they can't really be supporting the war unless they are being shot at. Which is rediculous.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: If support then why not serve?

          I agree with kero. The guy is trying to jab at people. It's not any kind of legitimate research.

          Theres lots of reasons why people dont serve in the military, and I'd be guessing that this guy hasnt served. Perhaps he ought to ask himself his own question.

          Personally, I have mixed feelings about the war in Iraq. i dont support the fact that it was started under false pretenses because our government feels like the american public is too stupid to grasp and accept the truth. I support the fact that we removed a genocidal megalomaniac from power. I support the men and women who serve in our armed forces who put their lives on the line and make personal sacrifices to do so. But I cant serve in the military. I was in NROTC when I was an undergrad at University of Colorado. I was released from my contract when I shattered my patella and tore my ligaments and tendons in my knee. They also told me that the severity of my injury made me too much of a medical risk to serve in the military.

          The bottom line is that theres no justification for this guy's article. Theres a million reasons why people cant or wont serve in the military. He just thinks hes being clever for trying to point out reasons why people dont. It's not clever, its disrespectful to those who do and disrespectful to those people who really do support what our soldiers have to do every day over there.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: If support then why not serve?

            I think there is a basic hypocrisy in advocating military action, particularly if you believe it to be the most important conflict of our age, and then not volunteering to put one's own life and well being on the line in support of that conflict, particularly if you are of an age and physical ability to do so.

            That's not the same thing as simply thinking the War in Iraq is a good idea.
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            • #7
              Re: If support then why not serve?

              All right, wanted to bring this up. Pretty much this guy would go around asking College Students if they supported the War on Terror and the War in Iraq. If they said yes, then he would ask "Then why aren't you over there fighting?" or "Are you going to Enlist?" Then they would give their reason why. Linky: http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/20...tml&frame=true

              So the point that the guy is making is you can't support your troops who are fighting if you aren't going to fight yourself. And a lot of people bring this up when I talk about the war. They will say "Well, if you support them why aren't to serving?" I personally think this is a stupid philosophy, it's like asking do you support firefighters putting out fires, then asking why aren't you a firefighter yourself then.

              What do you guys think?
              It's the 'for or against', two-dimensional mentality that sours arguments like this guy had. It harkens back to the days proceeding the Iraq invasion where if you didn't support the invasion, you supported Sadaam Hussein's massacres. If you support the war on terror, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should go sign up to fight it as its not plausible for a lot of people to just drop everything and sign up for the military. He's trying to make a superficial point, without giving much credence to the practicalities of actually doing so.
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              • #8
                Re: If support then why not serve?

                Originally posted by Steeler View Post
                I think there is a basic hypocrisy in advocating military action, particularly if you believe it to be the most important conflict of our age, and then not volunteering to put one's own life and well being on the line in support of that conflict, particularly if you are of an age and physical ability to do so.

                That's not the same thing as simply thinking the War in Iraq is a good idea.
                Thats the thing, there are plenty of reasons other than physical condition and age that preclude many people from military service. I'm not going to start rattling them off because that would take all day, but the point is made. It's perfectly reasonable to support an ideal or belief that something needs to be done and not do it yourself. For example: I believe that our political system is flawed and the vast majority of the people within it function on a very corrupt level, and as such I advocate change. However, being that I'm no politician and have no interest in entering into a system that no one man can change, I'm not going to run for office. Does that make me a hypocrite for believing that change is needed and not putting myself on the line to make the changes? No. It simply means that I believe in something.

                I believe and advocate that the military action we have taken in Iraq and the war on terror is largely justified. As stated in my earlier post, I dont agree with the false pretenses that suckered us into doing it, but I do believe that it was needed. I also believe in the fact that we need to stay there until the Iraqi government and police force has the power to stand on their own. I know lots of people who believe along the same lines, but their lack of military service doesnt make them hypocrites. It simply means they believe in something.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: If support then why not serve?

                  It has always bothered me to see those "We Support the Troops" signs in yards or those ribbons on cars. How is that supporting anything?

                  Fighting is just ONE way of supporting them. Have they written them letters or sent them things they needed or helped out their families who are struggling? Or protested for their return home? For the majority they have done nothing. I think " Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" really means. Fight them over there so we can drink lemonade over here.

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                  • #10
                    Re: If support then why not serve?

                    Originally posted by Hambergler View Post
                    It has always bothered me to see those "We Support the Troops" signs in yards or those ribbons on cars. How is that supporting anything?
                    If the signs and ribbons were bought from legitimate sources, a huge portion of the proceeds go to thing like the USO and other great programs that help the soldiers overseas.



                    Now personally, I care less if someone picks up a rucksack and enlists, it is not for everybody. It is a hard lifestyle. So to each thier own. America still needs lawyers, doctors, factory workers -not just soldiers.

                    The thing everyone can do is whatever thier opinion is is to get out and vote that way. This way they have supported or not supported the war.
                    "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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                    • #11
                      Re: If support then why not serve?

                      That clip was basically one snot nosed kid attacking other snot nose kids. While the video maker did point out the hypocrisy of those young republicans he failed to acknowledge that he was able to do this not because he fought to defend this rights, but because other fought and died for his right.

                      Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                      I think if they needed me over there fighting, I'd do it...but they don't need me.
                      This isn't true at all. They do need you. They need many more people.

                      The shortage of people is why the "Surge" was a measly 20-30k over the course of months. It is the shortage of volunteers that is causing the National guard to do much of the fighting and making rotations 15 months long. It is why the number of troops in Iraq will decrease in May 2008 no matter what happens in Iraq. There simply are no more troops to send to replace those at the end of their 15 month rotation. (Unless they extend the rotations.)

                      Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
                      It's the 'for or against', two-dimensional mentality that sours arguments like this guy had. It harkens back to the days proceeding the Iraq invasion where if you didn't support the invasion, you supported Sadaam Hussein's massacres. If you support the war on terror, that doesn't necessarily mean that you should go sign up to fight it as its not plausible for a lot of people to just drop everything and sign up for the military. He's trying to make a superficial point, without giving much credence to the practicalities of actually doing so.
                      I agree the "for or against" winner take all mentality is killing all rational debate about the war.

                      The fact is joining the military is rarely practical or convenient. Just like being blown up is not very practical for many. Nor is loosing a limb or having massive head trauma very practical.

                      The Military is not a organization for practical purposes. It is meant to kill other people in massive numbers and to destroy the infrastructure of other nations as fast possible to protect this country.

                      You don't join the military to have fun or because it is convenient. Ideally you join the military to serve your country. You join to protect the ideals you believe in. Protecting ideals is rarely convenient.

                      I think the reason there has not been a huge number of people joining the military to fight this foe is because we know, deep down inside, that this foe does not actually threaten America. Yea, it can harm us a little, but destroy us? Not a chance. And in Iraq especially there is not real threat to this country as a whole.

                      So if there is no threat then why risk anything?

                      Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                      Thats the thing, there are plenty of reasons other than physical condition and age that preclude many people from military service. I'm not going to start rattling them off because that would take all day, but the point is made. It's perfectly reasonable to support an ideal or belief that something needs to be done and not do it yourself. For example: I believe that our political system is flawed and the vast majority of the people within it function on a very corrupt level, and as such I advocate change. However, being that I'm no politician and have no interest in entering into a system that no one man can change, I'm not going to run for office. Does that make me a hypocrite for believing that change is needed and not putting myself on the line to make the changes? No. It simply means that I believe in something.

                      I believe and advocate that the military action we have taken in Iraq and the war on terror is largely justified. As stated in my earlier post, I dont agree with the false pretenses that suckered us into doing it, but I do believe that it was needed. I also believe in the fact that we need to stay there until the Iraqi government and police force has the power to stand on their own. I know lots of people who believe along the same lines, but their lack of military service doesnt make them hypocrites. It simply means they believe in something.
                      As I said, military service is a bit more simplistic than the decision to become a politician. Military service is a kill or be killed type thing when you get down to the core. As a soldier you don't try to compromise with your enemy on who should control the front lines. A soldier doesn't vote to see who wins the battle. And as a soldier you don't have much say in what you do. You do what you are told. There are not many parallels in civilian life.

                      But if you really want in, you can usually get in. My great uncle lied about a back problem to get into the army during WWII. He was then taken out of airborne and made a cook once the army found out, but he still served. While in the Navy I knew several people that lied about medical conditions so that they could serve.

                      Something tells me that most of those kids could get in the military if they really wanted to. They may not get the specialty or branch they want, but they could probably get in. There is a long and proud tradition of people sneaking in.

                      The fact is they don't want to. They don't have to. Nobody has to. That is the big problem. Nobody has to serve this country. I hate that fact. Everybody, and I mean everybody, should serve their country for some amount of time.

                      What is even worse, very few in this country where asked to sacrifice anything at all for this war that is "keeping the fighting off our shores". In fact many got a nice little tax break during this > 400 billion dollar war to "save America".

                      I do not blame any individual for not joining the military. To do so would be just as bad as the jackasses that call many liberals un-patriotic because they speak out against the war. Those republican kids in the video are simply being smart. They are doing what many of their political idols did, they avoided conflict so that they can focus on taking advantage of what America offers. They know there are those that will protect them and their lifestyle for a pittance and a pat on the back.

                      But is that something to be proud of? I would guess not. That probably explains the flopping they did when answering the question, "Why didn't you join?"
                      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: If support then why not serve?

                        Originally posted by TheBigC View Post
                        If the signs and ribbons were bought from legitimate sources, a huge portion of the proceeds go to thing like the USO and other great programs that help the soldiers overseas.
                        OK, but how many people are buying this stuff from legitimate sources. Most people are getting this stuff from gas stations, and the millions of websites out there. I'm not sure if the Pakistani guy running my gas station is sending any money to the USO.

                        The point is that there is such a disconnect between the American people and their representatives that no one stands up and does anything about anything. Voting is not enough. The politicians are getting away with doing whatever they want. Everyone sits at home, watches CNN and sticks a sign in their yard.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: If support then why not serve?

                          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                          This isn't true at all. They do need you. They need many more people.

                          The shortage of people is why the "Surge" was a measly 20-30k over the course of months. It is the shortage of volunteers that is causing the National guard to do much of the fighting and making rotations 15 months long. It is why the number of troops in Iraq will decrease in May 2008 no matter what happens in Iraq. There simply are no more troops to send to replace those at the end of their 15 month rotation. (Unless they extend the rotations.)
                          The army is recruiting about as many people as they want to recruit. To do everything we'd like to be able to do, we would have to significantly increase the size of the standing army. But that can't be done just by having more people volunteer, that requires congress to authorize funds to support the salaries of thousands of additional troops.

                          In short, they have as many people as they want, even if it isn't as many as they need. Within those parameters, they can afford to be a little bit choosy about who they select to carry a gun. Some people are just better fits for the lifestyle than others. Me? I'd be a terrible fit. I'm not the right type of person to make a good soldier. If I was drafted or something, I'd be glad to serve my country...but part of having an "all volunteer army" is a higher quality of soldier, because you only use the correct type of person to start out with. I would be a low quality soldier, and the guy they took instead of me would be higher quality.

                          I actually did try and sign up for the Air Force once, figuring that's the only service where I could actually pass the health requirements. They wouldn't take me.

                          So when I say, "They don't need me," I'm speaking from experience. They really don't need me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: If support then why not serve?

                            Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                            The army is recruiting about as many people as they want to recruit. To do everything we'd like to be able to do, we would have to significantly increase the size of the standing army. But that can't be done just by having more people volunteer, that requires congress to authorize funds to support the salaries of thousands of additional troops.

                            In short, they have as many people as they want, even if it isn't as many as they need. Within those parameters, they can afford to be a little bit choosy about who they select to carry a gun. Some people are just better fits for the lifestyle than others. Me? I'd be a terrible fit. I'm not the right type of person to make a good soldier. If I was drafted or something, I'd be glad to serve my country...but part of having an "all volunteer army" is a higher quality of soldier, because you only use the correct type of person to start out with. I would be a low quality soldier, and the guy they took instead of me would be higher quality.

                            I actually did try and sign up for the Air Force once, figuring that's the only service where I could actually pass the health requirements. They wouldn't take me.

                            So when I say, "They don't need me," I'm speaking from experience. They really don't need me.

                            Sorry, I was talking about the royal you. But you are correct in that the standing army numbers, including the reserves, are pretty much set by the government. The air force turns away thousands because it has all the recruits it needs.

                            But that is part of my point. For this huge, vastly important war that is going to save America from it's horrible enemies the government didn't do anything to increase the number of personnel needed to fight it.

                            Why? Because it might upset somebody? Because Americans don't want to defend their own country?

                            Bull crap. If they know a risk is actually present they would stand up. But, well, you know. This war isn't really about defending our country, it is about politics and parties.

                            The kids in the video pretty much show this.
                            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: If support then why not serve?

                              Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                              But if you really want in, you can usually get in. My great uncle lied about a back problem to get into the army during WWII. He was then taken out of airborne and made a cook once the army found out, but he still served. While in the Navy I knew several people that lied about medical conditions so that they could serve.
                              ...There is a long and proud tradition of people sneaking in.
                              ...cont'd

                              I do not blame any individual for not joining the military. To do so would be just as bad as the jackasses that call many liberals un-patriotic because they speak out against the war. Those republican kids in the video are simply being smart. They are doing what many of their political idols did, they avoided conflict so that they can focus on taking advantage of what America offers. They know there are those that will protect them and their lifestyle for a pittance and a pat on the back.
                              On these two points you make, I agree. If you want in, you can get in. Hell, the Navy diagnosed me and has it on record that I have a bum knee. However, if I was hell bent for leather on getting in, I know people in high places that could make it happen (people who work at the pentagon can do some interesting things). Also, having had the benefit of having my mom as the commanding officer of Naval Recruiting District San Francisco when I was a young lad, I know all the interesting ways that you can cheat the system into getting you in and then getting you what you want out of it.

                              However, as I dont have the wish to be party to anything illegal just so I can go fly multimillion dollar aircraft, I'll stick to being a civilian (in addition to the fact that since i'm a nurse, i doubt very seriously that i'd get aviation). But know that it is possible. Just about anyone who wants in can get in, you just have to do the right things to get there.

                              On the next point, the way that soldiers are treated when they return home, alive or dead, is my focus. You used the term "a pittance and a pat on the back". I'd say thats half right, the pittance part. Soldiers dont make much. Most guys who enlist could be making vastly more than they do in the army if they were civilians if they looked for good jobs. The most extreme example is Pat Tillman, who gave up a multimillion dollar football contract to join the army for a monthly salary that amounts to what would have been pocket change to him.

                              The other part is the pat on the back. Our soldiers dont get that much. They get a little "welcome home" and then they get the barrage of questions from people who ask them why they fight a war they dont believe in, why they dont just go AWOL, how can they live with the knowledge that they've killed people. On top of that, we have actual HATE GROUPS that target our soldiers. We have people who disgrace them at their funerals with signs that call them homosexuals, devil worshipers, sling profanities at them and belittle their very lives. Sure, theres a group of bikers who goes around and shields funerals from these people with the threat of violence, but damn. This is how we treat our fighting men and women. We insult them. We impress upon them that what they are doing is for nothing. We berate them with questions they dont need. We defile the memories of their dead with hate mongering. Then we send them back for more.

                              The yellow ribbons are a good thing. As was said above, if bought from a reputable place, the proceeds go to various charities and groups that use the money to send care packages and put on entertainment and otherwise make life more comfortable for the troops. if you have the opportunity to more directly help the guys and gals overseas, then do so. If not, get a ribbon or a magnet and know that you're helping in some small way.

                              Either way, next time you talk to someone who serves, regardless of whether or not they've been to iraq, whether or not you agree with the war, whether or not you even like the military, thank them.

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