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  • I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

    Okay, there is not enough arable farmland in this world to support the current population and right now there are plenty of evangelicals in America trying to form an admitted "Christian Nation" on the only part of this planet that I know. (Which is, as it so happens, a nation that believes that Church and State should be held most separate.)

    So, the only people who have a plan to rectify the starvation situation (which, admittedly, only affects third-world countries like those in Africa which people like you seem to have nothing to be a part of) like to solve it with genetic engineering, which would bring about higher yields in seed and fruit in a said plant than organic or "natural" farming techniques would produce. Unfortunately, many "liberals" and especially conservatives seems to oppose such measures as they employ various techniques said parties have no familiarity with and have decided to block it because of their fear of change and the unknown.

    Also, many fundamentalist christians have taken to blindly following their Television Gods that like to give them pix-elated communion to the point that this very America, and the Republic for which it stands, has become a breeding ground of sorts for a new fascism--the likes of which haven't been seen since the Nazis--with the same goals of world domination and conformity that Adolf Hitler had in his coked up mind. Worse yet, they use the power of their "religion" in combination with a patriotism so pseudo...so fake that it seems to have fooled the masses all over again :icon_conf. I seriously find it hard to believe that it's related to the same pride that I take in a nation that says freedom should be for ALL and that EQUALITY IN EVERYTHING (including marriage for people like homosexuals) should be protected by some sort of upstanding 'constitution'-type thing [like, where do we have one of those....OH RIGHT!]!!


    Enraged at something yet?? I hope so, even if it's me.


    Basically I think that starvation problem could be solved by using multi-storied hydroponic farms (like up to 20+ stories tall) that could grow enough food for this starving planet on the current available farm space--if not less than that. The problem with the water usage that would require I feel could be solved by a few desalinization plants funded by benevolent investors who felt desalinization technology deserved to be brought up to the 20TH (if not 21ST) century and saw all the good that could be done if it was.

    As for the problem with America becoming a fascist state...I can only hope I've pissed enough of you off with the very idea of it that YOU THE PEOPLE will rebel and resist such encroaching wrongdoings that my speculations will, quite simply, never come to fruition.

    I really hope this thread will go on for quite a while until each and every one of us feels that all absolute Evil in this world has been met with a Good which is twice as powerful.
    Last edited by CingularDuality; 08-01-2007, 06:10 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Too much F'ed Up S*** in this world

    Okay, you already related 'Fundamental Christians' to "Nazi's". Nazi's believed in the superiority of the Aryan race. I don't see fundamental Christians running around killing different sects of their religion for their beliefs. Taking one extreme (Nazi's) and comparing it to F.C's is like apples and oranges.

    Also, many fundamentalist christians have taken to blindly following their Television Gods that like to give them pix-elated communion to the point that this very America, and the Republic for which it stands, has become a breeding ground of sorts for a new fascism--the likes of which haven't been seen since the Nazis--with the same goals of world domination and conformity that Adolf Hitler had in his coked up mind. Worse yet, they use the power of their "religion" in combination with a patriotism so pseudo...so fake that it seems to have fooled the masses all over again . I seriously find it hard to believe that it's related to the same pride that I take in a nation that says freedom should be for ALL and that EQUALITY IN EVERYTHING (including marriage for people like homosexuals) should be protected by some sort of upstanding 'constitution'-type thing [like, where do we have one of those....OH RIGHT!]!!
    Do you have any reading material\links that documents this idea of 'world domination' on part of evangelical christians? PNAC doesn't count. I'd be willing to take a bet there's thousands of movements in the country that want society to conform to their vision of what the world should be.


    As for the problem with America becoming a fascist state...I can only hope I've pissed enough of you off with the very idea of it that YOU THE PEOPLE will rebel and resist such encroaching wrongdoings that my speculations will, quite simply, never come to fruition.
    The only way America will become a fascist state is if the executive branch usurped legislative power, and gave the president something like an enabling act. If you keep up on the daily news, you'll see that power is being challenged quite frequently as of late, and is far from absolute power. Unless its something different like a hybrid corporate\political facism, which is far more complex and debatable. Democracies always need to be vigilant of tyranny taking over the government, and work to correct it. This is nothing new to our form of government.

    Basically I think that starvation problem could be solved by using multi-storied hydroponic farms (like up to 20+ stories tall) that could grow enough food for this starving planet on the current available farm space--if not less than that. The problem with the water usage that would require I feel could be solved by a few desalinization plants funded by benevolent investors who felt desalinization technology deserved to be brought up to the 20TH (if not 21ST) century and saw all the good that could be done if it was.
    Desalinization is an expensive process. I don't foresee 20 story hydroponic farms sprouting up over the horizon anytime soon. Africa is still reeling from the effects of past colonization and climate change. While you can argue for what the real moral cause of the international community should be, take your pick:

    Climate Change
    HIV\AIDS Epidemic
    Extreme Poverty
    Genocide
    Reduction of nuclear weapons

    (The list is exhaustive)

    Maybe instead of going to the moon, Kennedy could have used all that money to fund a project to feed Africa. Or instead of building nuclear weapons, plant more trees in a large scale global forestry program. Which would benefit the world more?

    Even if there was a benevolent benefactor that built all these plants for the poor, would they see it as a power play to gain more influence in their own country? Once a few of these are built, some local militias want to destroy them because they feel they can take care of themselves and are in charge of their own destiny. They are tired of foreign powers always trying to control them and otherwise meddle with their lives. Who's 'right' then?

    I really hope this thread will go on for quite a while until each and every one of us feels that all absolute Evil in this world has been met with a Good which is twice as powerful.
    There is dualism with most things in the world. Even with the best intentions, sometimes things still end up bad or even worse. There will always be a cause to fight for, or against. The only thing you can hope for is that you find one that satisfies you, because you sure can't take on all the bad things in the world, even if you wanted to.
    Last edited by aeroripper; 08-01-2007, 05:33 AM.
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    • #3
      Re: Too much F'ed Up S*** in this world

      That was even funnier to read at 2:50 in the morning.

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      • #4
        Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

        Rant all you want, but keep it within TG's standards. Let me know when you have a thread title that doesn't contain four letter words.
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        • #5
          Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

          I sense much anger in this one.
          Anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side.

          In all seriousness your post jumps around a bit and uses lots of colors and bolding in very interesting ways that make it seem confused.

          After reading it I think I manage to boil it down to these key points:
          1. The US, with its religious freedom and seperation between church and state, is fundamentally Christian in nature or turning that way
          2. Solutions to world hunger, such as genetic engineering of staple crops, is being blocked by ignorant fearmongers
          3. Televangalists are abusing religion to sway the masses
          4. Equality for all is meaningless when you try to take equality from the minority
          5. World hunger could be solved with the construction of large agricultural hubs and desalinized water supply
          6. The US will never turn towards fascism as long as the people remain aware
          That cover everything?

          For the first point the United States of America was founded for Christians by Christians with the other religions allowed to live here without the fear of being stoned to death most of the time. The phrase 'seperation between church and state' should've given that little tidbit away right off the bat. Religious freedom does not equal religious equality and since the original settlers were all from Christian religions and the population now is still a majority to Christianity the USA will be a Christian Nation. Such a label would be a double edged sword really. Christianity is a lot of things and the term 'good Chrisitan' is often used to mean 'good person'. So a Chrisitan Nation could inspire people to believe the USA is a charitable and humanitarian country. Then again is can also mean we're apt to leading religious crusades into the Middle East against the Islamic people. Of course the people who would see that aspect of the term already believe it.

          Here are two short excepts into the mess that is my life on the subject:
          In 5th grade the nation was at war with Operation Desert Shield so the school district was in a patriotic fervor. As such we were required to recite the pledge of allegiance before sitting down at the start of class, after recess and lunch, and before leaving. Yes, it cut down into 'learning time' but since when has that been important? For those who don't recall it goes like this:
          I pledge allegiance, to the flag
          Of the United States of America
          And to the republic, for which it stands
          One nation
          Under god
          Indivisible
          With liberty, and justice, for all
          After the first week I thought of the hypocrisy of saying the US has religious freedom and a seperation of church and state (3rd grade Social Studies back then before it was replaced with the 'learn to color' of the school system today) and purposefully omitted the line 'under god' from the pledge. This went on a few days before my teacher realized I was quiet during the recital and sent me to the principal's office. When asked why I wasn't saying the whole pledge I pointed out that using a Christian line in a national pledge went against the seperation between church and state we are so proud of. They told me it was the official pledge and all 'good christians' recite the official national pledge of allegiance to the flag. I told them I wasn't christian and if I could replace the line with something from another religion (allah, buddah, spirits of my ancestors, can't remember what I told them now). They told me I had detention for a week.

          The other story is more current. I have 'interesting' friends and one of them is a devout Buddist. There is actually a monestary around the San Fransisco area that has been ordained by a high priest as holy ground and you can join the monkhood as a religious retreat. Now some history. There used to be two churches in the area, but with the death of one of the pastors the two congregations combined and one of them was abandoned. The land and buildings was bought by a wealth businessman and donated to a buddist society for buddist asian immigrants. They then had the land ordained and moved a small sect of monks to run a monestary so they had a place to worship and meditate. I'll skip ahead to the important parts and gloss over the religious whys and 'what for's. The city and county passed a series of laws restricting the freedom of the establishment when the neighbors learned what 'good church land' was being used for and notified the authorities. The monestary is not allowed to put any sign on the side of the road designating it a monestary or place of worship. The monestary is not allowed to cut the trees on the side of the road shielding the building from view because that strand of trees (100 feet long and 10 feet wide) has been proclaimed city property even though it is on privately owned land. They are not allowed to hold any public events within 50 feet of the side boardering the road or be charged with public disorder. They are not allowed to improve the land in any way or add additional buildings due to a restriction placed on that property and that property alone. They are also not allowed to move the pile of debris and cuttings taken from the county paid trimming of all trees along the road, except in their section, that has been placed in front of their gate and fence because the area has been deemed a city dumping area for removal by the city...eventually. If the debris is moved from where it is dumped or disturbed then they will have to have it removed themselves at their expense within 48 hours (the latest dump is 3 months old). Of course while I was down there the church further down the road set up a stand in front of their sign on the road for their tri-tip sandwich dinners. It caused traffic to back up in both directions so they could run their 'drive thru' on the road. The police came down to investigate the disturbance and after spending an hour questioning the monks at the monestary they went to the church for some sandwiches. Due to the difficulty people had in picking up their sandwiches because of the traffic jam they held a second dinner the next day with their stand on the road so people didn't have to leave their cars while still backing up traffic in both directions. I later learned the monestary recieved a warning from the police that the traffic in front of their establishment (caused by the traffic jam further up the road) was interfering with the work of a religious building down the street and any further interferance would result in charges.

          Yea for 'religious freedom'. ^_^

          Point two is easy to address. There are stupid people everywhere and its easier to fear the unknown than educate yourself and remove ignorance. I still laugh when I hear some of the arguements against genetic enhancements and animal testing. My favorite against genetic enhancements is that people do it to 'play god' (heh...god again) or eating genetically enhanced goods will turn you into frankenstein. Both laughable assumptions since most attempts at genetic enhancements are, as you stated, to provided higher yield crops to try and solve world hunger. My personal favorite against animal testing is that we have never produced or will produce anything from the testing of animals or the use of animal based chemicals. [sarcasm]You know its true...except things like insulin, antibiotics, and antivenoms really unimportant things like that. [/sarcasm]

          I'll skip point three since its rather obvious what my stance on organized religion is. There is a very good reason why Jesus was called the Good Shepherd and his followers the flock. In religion we are to be mindless sheep swaying to the words of our spiritual leader. It would be against human nature for people to not abuse that power.

          Point four I'll also take a pass on. People need something to put apart from themselves so they can place their blame upon them. When its something obvious like the language they speak or the color of their skin then laws are passed to try and keep 'them' from 'us' or vice versa. With something like homosexuality the signs aren't, in reality, easy to spot without a actual relationship. So people strike at marriage in an attempt to strike at homosexuality. If it was easier to recognize them then you'd see serious attempts at cramming them into ghettos or passing laws against them like the old laws against asians and african-americans.

          Point five touches upon several socio-economic issues that make it difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish. Aeroripper talked about the history and the past, but you also have to consider the present and its past. Where will you put those '20 story hydrophonic farms' and who do you have to pay for and staff them? Hydrophonic farms are different in that they are...well...hydrophonic farms. Farmers don't work in hydrophonic farms, technicians do and its actually skilled work. Also you are allocating a lot of money for very little turn out. Lets say a farmer turns a 10 cent seed into a 70 cent plant with 20 cents of overhead. A hydrophonic technician will take that same 10 cent seed and turn it into a 70 cent plant...but with 100 times the overhead in cost. The only time hydrophonics is a valid replacement for traditional farming is when the benefits outweigh the cost. In traditional science fiction you see hydrophonic bays in space. Why? Because its more cost effective to support an expensive hydrophonic system then transport food staples across vast distances in space. On land, that's not true. It is decidedly cheaper to grow food in a number of locations and then ship it via land/air to where people will buy it.
          Ah...but there's other factors to it as well. Where will you put the damn things? If you put it in a first world country (places with the highest probability of supporting expensive hydrophonics, desalinization, and the technical training) then you put it far away from the places the world hunger you wish to solve takes place. Logistics starts to become a factor because you are now producing a large amount of food in a central location and have to ship it large distances before it can be sent over another large distance for distribution while keeping it fresh. What about local farmers? They now have a larger producer nearby who will definately be distributing locally as well and glut their prices. Their 70 cent plant just turned into a 30 cent plant with the 20 cents of overhead. Congradulations, you just killed the agricultural sector of the economy. Farmers already need government assistance to produce what they do (which is actually an overabundance to their markets) and now you're lowering what they make while adding a more expensive replacement for cheap goods. Food production needs to be cheap or the cost of food goes up. If the cost of food goes up then the poor start to starve and all that effort into solving world hunger just create more hungry people who can't afford to eat what you produce.

          Building them locally? Well its a technical job so that means hiring specialists from out of the country since I harbor serious doubts if the people there have the education and skill sets required. You could also train up the populus, but if you were able to do that you wouldn't be a third world country. You also need the funds to build the damn things, but if you had THAT you'd be putting it into more important things like education and basic living improvements. You definately can't be going out to charitable organizations for the same reasons Aeroripper states. Then there's the problem with actually centralizing your food and clean water productions. They will be the target for terrorist attacks and power plays...always. Whoever controls the flow of food and water to a once starving population will control the popualation and people will fight over such control.

          The problem with world hunger is actually a problem with world poverty. Countries that are poor will be unable to fund all the things we take for granted in first world countries. If the people are too poor to feed themselves then all the food in the world won't help them if they can't afford it. Its a vicious cycle. Poor countries will be unable to fund great industrial and economic works that will no longer make them poor. So the poor stay poor and the rich stay rich.

          Aeroripper also discussed point 6. The US is very far from fascism because of its three branches of power. We would need one governing body exerting strict control over all aspects of society and the economy to quality as fascism. Even if the executive branch usurped control the state authorities still has some say over the law.

          In a bit of trivia the USA was never a strict democracy. We were a representative democracy and so we are considered a republic. Yes, I said 'were'. In a way some of the republic aspects of our government has been replaced with an Aristocracy. We give the power to a very select and special group (currently white middle aged married males with strong Christian ties and plenty of money) and most, if not all, aspects of politics is controled by the rich and well established. Its possible to have a small 'grass roots' movement occasionally, but the reigns of power are fully in the hands of the wealthy.

          Yes I do place a seperation between the word 'democracy' and 'republic' mainly because of the meaning held between the two. If you wanted to be vague then a republic is a democracy. However a democracy means the people make the decisions while a republic means the people choose representatives to decide for them. We call ourselves in the USA a democracy because it soulds more responsable to say we direct our government. It doesn't have as nice a ring to it if we say we picked the people screwing up with decisions made in our names. It sounds even worse when we say a majority of the time those decisions are made purely by the people we pick without any thought to us at all.

          Do not fear losing your freedom to Fascism. Fear losing your freedom to the ongoing push towards Aristocracy.

          And yes, I needed something to do at 3 in the morning. ^_^
          My sanity is not in question...
          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



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          • #6
            Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

            To the OP:

            Just for fun, lets replace all the instances of "Christians" in your rant, and replace it with the word "Jews" and then see who looks like the Nazi.

            Also, I'd love for you to point out the part about gay marriage in the Constitution.
            "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
            He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

            - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

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            • #7
              Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

              :D I can point to it,

              it's one of the signatures

              Samuel Adams

              Samuel Adams was gay I do think. case closed. (sarcasm&Satire)

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              • #8
                Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                Less mushrooms in your diet would probably be beneficial, dude. ;)
                Beatnik

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                • #9
                  Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                  Fewer.
                  In game handle: Steel Scion
                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                    HairyNevus, if you really are 18, where are you going to college? You've clearly got an active mind but it needs some serious refining. Take it easy. You've got a lot to learn.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                      Originally posted by HairyNevus View Post
                      Okay, there is not enough arable farmland in this world to support the current population...
                      Unfortunately your beautiful rant post falls apart before you reach the end of the first sentence, because that's quite simply not true. We have more than enough arable farmland to support the current world's population. Starvation today is all a problem of distribution of food, not production.

                      Now, if the world population keeps growing like it is, I could forsee a time in the future when we run out of arable farmland...but let me assure you, we aren't close to that yet.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                        With countries like china Russia and Brazil able to sell grain and have tons of farm land the US doesn't need to support the world anymore. In 2006 Russia was able to sell wheat to Iran for the first time in 20 years. 2% of the US is agriculture, we get plenty of grain from that along with plenty of imports from Brazil. Anymore farm land and the crop prices would fall even farther then they already have.

                        Hydroponics is not the answer, believe me. There is to much overhead and environmental issues with hydroponics to be a viable solution to the problem you described.

                        Genetically enhanced crops are great. They DO NOT hurt the quality of the grain but make it better. Make Soy beans resistant to round up has helped double the soybean crop. Making Corn immune to certain insects and fungi has made corn grow better and alot more predictable. The FDA recently published findings that support the fact that genetically enhanced crops do not hurt us or the animals that eat it. Theres another usage, feed. Enhanced corn that has more protein and usable carbs has helped the beef industry make better meat and leaner meat.


                        I wont touch on the religious thing because more hear have already heard it. It does no good to keep pushing unwanted views on people, just makes them bitter.

                        I could go on and on but i wont because my grammar and spelling is starting to fall apart. And i agree with Santa, the later it got the weirder that post got.
                        that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                        -Vulcan

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                        • #13
                          Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                          Okay, just to make one thing clear, this was me really drunk, at 3:30 in the AM. Plus, I had been reading American fascists so that's where I got that whole idea about the religious right taking over America. Sorry I didn't think to cite more sources, I'll get back to it.

                          Kero, your wrong. The only way we can deal with the current population rise on Earth is to cut down more trees for that farmland or get more out of the current farmland.

                          Didn't try to come off as a hate thread, Evo. As a Jew, I can see your point all too clearly now so I'm sorry (don't drink and post...don't drink and post).

                          Sorry I don't have time to read all this and respond 'cause I got a busy day but I'll get back to it later. In the meantime...brainstorm! That was the point of this thread, could have been much better executed. I totally forgot about global warming and fossil fuel shortages so we should fix that, too. (Cing, love the new title) :)

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                          • #14
                            Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                            Originally posted by HairyNevus View Post
                            The only way we can deal with the current population rise on Earth is to cut down more trees for that farmland or get more out of the current farmland.
                            I'd recommend reading Ishmael or The Story of B by Daniel Quinn for some insight into population and its relationship to food.
                            Beatnik

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                            • #15
                              Re: I can't come up with an intelligent thread title!

                              Originally posted by HairyNevus View Post
                              Kero, your wrong. The only way we can deal with the current population rise on Earth is to cut down more trees for that farmland or get more out of the current farmland.
                              ...both of which are done on a regular basis each and every year. Farm productivity per acre has been steadily rising for the last thousand years, always keeping one step ahead of increases in population--as evidenced by the fact that people were foretelling mass starvation due to lack of farmland 200 years ago, and it hasn't happened yet.

                              The current population of Earth can be easily fed by our current productivity. Large amounts of food go to waste as it is. Feeding the population of next year will require greater production, sure, but we've got a long history of being able to come up with that greater production just as it is needed. And there's still large areas of arable land that are not yet farmed at all.

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