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  • Gay Marriage

    Gay Marriage was something that was a hot topic, and still is. But it is put behind everything that has been going on in the past few years. So heres my question to you guys.

    Does Gay Marriage bother you? Are you for it, against it, in between?

    For me, I have no problem of two people of the same gender being together, my problem is that they call it "Marriage". They should call it something else like a Union between two people, life partners, or butt buddies, whatever rocks their boat. But calling it marriage isn't right in my mind, since marriage is something that should only be between a man and a women.

    Also, something that I myself am not sure of, is if a gay couple should be allowed to adopt a child. Will the child be confused, dramatized, or even turn gay by thinking it is normal since their "parents" are both gay?

  • #2
    Re: Gay Marriage

    I thought Marriage was a religious thing, and being gay is against something in the bible? They should call it something else.

    I'm against it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Gay Marriage

      Originally posted by UnDeaD77 View Post
      I thought Marriage was a religious thing, and being gay is against something in the bible? They should call it something else.

      I'm against it.
      That was probably the shortest reply I have ever seen that actually answered all my questions. lol

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Gay Marriage

        Originally posted by FatCobra View Post
        ...something that I myself am not sure of, is if a gay couple should be allowed to adopt a child. Will the child be confused, dramatized, or even turn gay by thinking it is normal since their "parents" are both gay?
        You can not be "turned" gay. Being gay is not a choice. Gay is not a "sexual preference". And even if the child did "turn" gay, what's wrong with that anyway? Just like straight people, I'm sure gay people would make great/terrible parents. Why shouldn't they be allowed to adopt?

        Originally posted by UnDeaD77 View Post
        I thought Marriage was a religious thing, and being gay is against something in the bible?
        And many non-religious straight couples get married too.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Gay Marriage

          Originally posted by ChopStick View Post
          You can not be "turned" gay. Being gay is not a choice. Gay is not a "sexual preference". And even if the child did "turn" gay, what's wrong with that anyway? Just like straight people, I'm sure gay people would make great/terrible parents. Why shouldn't they be allowed to adopt?



          And many non-religious straight couples get married too.

          Eh, I'm not big on marriage myself, I'm not big into religion either, I believe in God, and thats all I'm suppose to do. What I really do not agree with, is gay women wanting to have babies, and raising them. To me its wrong to do to the kid, and I'm not talking about adoption, I'm talking about gay women actually getting pregnant and having the kid, and raising them together. Sorry, but a kid needs a father (or mother) in their life.

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          • #6
            Re: Gay Marriage

            Anymore these days marriage is a legal condition as opposed to a religious condition. How I feel about gays marrying is beside the point. What I don't feel is right is any federal law regulating any form of marriage. These should be left to the state and the state only. We cannot allow the federal government to regulate lifestyle on that level. What kind of precedence would that allow for future lifestyle regulations?

            EDIT: To answer the question of the original post...

            I could really care less who marries who. It doesn't have any impact on my life whatsoever.
            | | |

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            • #7
              Re: Gay Marriage

              Marriage isn't just a religious thing. I mean, lots of nonreligious people get married, don't they? And, I take it the debate over the permissibility of gay marriage takes place under the legal conception of marriage--not necessarily a religious one; so it doesn't matter if the bible says homosexuality is wrong.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Gay Marriage

                I look at it like this.
                If two people love each other then they should be GTG.
                Its down to choice, and I do think we should limit choice in this issue.

                While I personly don't agree with the lifestyle, I do not want to force my views on anyone else any more than I want there views force(by way of law) on me if I don't agree with them.
                Word

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Gay Marriage

                  You know, its funny. Marriage being a male-female union is a christian thing. Some of the other religions have adopted this view, but not all of them. Some religions dont even use the word marriage.

                  The sad thing is that the word is the problem. As cobra so put, if they called it something else, but still granted the same rights and privileges as a "married" couple, there would be no issue. How shallow are we in that we get bent out of shape over a word?

                  I mean really, lets look deep at this. If you're going to go with the religious argument, there are places in the bible that state that homosexuality is bad juju. But we have accepted that as something that doesnt bother the majority of us anymore. So instead we get hung up over a word! Does anyone else find that a tad ridiculous?

                  Why make the concession to grant the same rights and priveleges but hold back the title? Is there power in that title? Does a homosexual couple demean the rest of the married world by holding the title?

                  Another point is where it comes to religions that dont view marriage the same way as christianity. Did it ever occur to the majority of the anti-M-word public that you might be offending other people's religious views? Of course not. Because when religion is in play, people wear blinders. They see their own religion and dont take into account the views of anyone outside their own sect.

                  Religion is a bad topic to drag into this debacle anyway. Religious arguments hold no water in a country that claims to allow religious freedom yet limits, by law, the way in which those religions are practiced. It's a hypocritical flaw in our system and it makes for poor arguments from all involved.

                  On a personal note, I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals getting hitched, having/adopting children. I have homosexual relatives, but even before that, my views were the same. Sexuality has absolutely no bearing on how responsible people can be. It has no effect on whether or not someone will be abusive or criminal. It has no bearing on the quality of parenting that two people will give to a child.

                  Just because a child has homosexual parents does not mean that the child will be homosexual any more than a child raised by a single parent will wind up being one themselves because they think that "its the way things are done". I have a good friend who was raised by homosexual parents and is in probably the best functioning heterosexual relationships i have ever seen. Never in his life has he had any attraction to his own gender. Is he an anomaly? I very seriously doubt it. There is no scientific or social evidence to suggest the opposite in any form, so I fail to see where any non-religious argument could hold water.

                  In an argument like this, it is all too easy to base everything we say on opinion. That includes religion. There is no fact in religion. You cant prove the existence of God, they've been trying for a very long time. So try making an argument based on fact. This isnt ragging on anyone, but a simple suggestion. Lets try and find a logical answer why it shouldnt be allowed and otherwise treat it as any other freedom we have. Let people live the way they want to live and dont get in the way with petty opinionated BS. Put yourself in the opposite situation and examine the opposite viewpoint and how different your opinion would be.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Gay Marriage

                    The general idea behind governments sanctioning marriages is a very old idea that the government has a vested interest in the kind of citizens make up the population. A good government does not want a lot of dysfunctional citizens. This is why the government gets involved in education and policing the populous and such. The idea goes as far back as Plato. This is why the real lines of debate over gay marriage come in the form of comparing how the children of gay couples turn out versus those of heterosexual couples. It's no surprise that the arguments turn on developments coming from sociology, anthropology, social economics, psychology, political theory, and such rather than religion.

                    The debate over whether you think gay marriage is morally right or wrong is orthogonal to the debate over its legal status.

                    Ferris, I don't think heterosexual marriage is a Christian thing or even a religious thing. It was prevalent in major civilizations long before Christianity arose, i.e. ancient Greece, ancient China. And, in those civilizations, marriage wasn't considered particularly religious. I'm pretty sure institutionalized marriage had it's beginnings as a socially recognized relation. It's only later that some religions came along and appropriated it as a religious relation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Gay Marriage

                      True, but thats also because even ancient cultures viewed homosexuality as unnatural and taboo. This lasting ostracism led to the formation of these ideals in religious texts and a continued ostracism of homosexuals through the ages. In recent years, we have made huge cultural strides toward equality and fair treatment for homosexuals. Yet now, in a time when people preach understanding and equality, this issue is one which causes the anti-gay marriage crowd to hide behind their religious shields once again.

                      So yes, while it's origins are cultural, the modern bias is entirely religiously based. Nobody has presented any argument against homosecual marriage thus far that doesnt involve religion. I'm simply interested to see if someone can mount a reasonable, rational argument that doesnt involve religion.

                      But before I open the door too wide on the cultural origins thing, also remember that there are countless cultural ideals that have been formed, given rise to ostracism, punishment or even genocide toward a certain group of people that have fallen by the wayside in modern times. Recall that at one point in our own history, it was known and religiously backed that the white man was created superior and thus only he was allowed to own land. I simply think that its time to practice equality instead of practicing half-equality and then only when it suits our own religious background.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Gay Marriage

                        Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                        True, but thats also because even ancient cultures viewed homosexuality as unnatural and taboo.
                        Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Romans and Greek warrior males were fond of keeping boys around to bugger.
                        | | |

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Gay Marriage

                          Originally posted by FatCobra View Post
                          Gay Marriage was something that was a hot topic, and still is. But it is put behind everything that has been going on in the past few years. So heres my question to you guys.

                          Does Gay Marriage bother you? Are you for it, against it, in between?
                          It should not matter what people think, people should be treated equally.

                          For me, I have no problem of two people of the same gender being together, my problem is that they call it "Marriage". They should call it something else like a Union between two people, life partners, or butt buddies, whatever rocks their boat. But calling it marriage isn't right in my mind, since marriage is something that should only be between a man and a women.
                          Why do you think the word is so special? Marriage is a legal union of two people, there is nothing special about the word other than the privileges it grants. Calling it something else makes it not equal, and there are many things in the world that are granted to married couples and not to civil unions (often work benefits, medical rights etc.). Separate but equal is not equal.

                          Also, something that I myself am not sure of, is if a gay couple should be allowed to adopt a child. Will the child be confused, dramatized, or even turn gay by thinking it is normal since their "parents" are both gay?
                          50 years ago a black and a white person wanting to marry were considered unnatural and it was opposed legally because of the "negative impact on the children". Calling it something else for different people makes it not equal, and therefore discriminatory. Currently in the great state of Kansas (my wonderful home) the people passed a state constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. All the happy Christians got to show how superior they are to the "butt buddies" as you so wonderfully called them. They did not however make a status for those gay couples to have the legal equivalent of a marriage instead. Gay couples, single parents and other minorities are able to adopt though, so the think of the children crap is moot. And no, children's sexual orientation is not determined by their parents, biological or adoptive, all that guarantees is that they might not become close minded bigots because they have been exposed to something most people avoid and fear.
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Gay Marriage

                            Its important that we separate the legal action from the colloquial/social/religious interpretation.

                            Civil Marriage, as far as the government is concerned, is the creation of legal union and obligation between two consenting parties. To that end, I don't see how any couple can be excluded if they wish to burden themselves with such obligations.

                            What most people tend to argue is that religious marriage (according to their view) forbids same sex union. That may be so, but the government is under no obligation to uphold a religious dogma. In fact, they are under obligation to IGNORE any particular religious belief.

                            Opponents then continue by saying they have no problem with gays being together, but they don't want the government calling it marriage.

                            Sounds a bit separate but equal to me...

                            I don't think the government should call the union marriage --- no matter if its between a man and a woman, two men, or two women. The government should simply recognize the civil union, regardless of the sex of the participants. Everyone should have civil unions. Everyone should have to get a civil union license, not a marriage license.

                            Leave the use of the word marriage up to the individual. Your priest can marry you, but in the governments eyes, he should be performing a civil union, gay or straight.

                            ---------

                            Now for adoption.

                            There are some seriously misguided views of sexuality that tend to contribute to peoples distaste for gay adoption.

                            Sexuality is not binary. You're not a 1 or a 0. Sexuality is a spectrum of visceral, emotional, and social influence that culminate in preference and desire. Social influence tends to be a driving force in personal acceptance and comfort while visceral emotion is often the determining factor orientation.

                            Cultures that are accepting towards homo or bisexuality will have more openly homosexual or bisexual individuals, not because they are 'creating gay people' but because people will feel more comfortable to act on their own feelings. Many people in homophobic cultures suppress emotions or desires that they think will be considered unacceptable and simply live their lives without fulfilling their curiosity. These places have just as many bisexual individuals, but not as many that have allowed themselves to realize it.

                            Ok, all that behind us, there's nothing wrong or bad about sexual preference. While being homosexual may be 'maladaptive' as far as reproductive success is concerned, that is a moot point in an era of global population explosion. The world would be a healthier place if most of india and china were gay!

                            So, back to the actual adoption issue. Many people fear that homosexual adoptions will 'infect' the children with homosexuality. They hold this view because to them, homosexuality is a bad thing that should be feared. In my opinion, it will encourage the children to be true to their own feelings, whatever they may be. Should the child be a completely straight arrow, nothing will pressure them into being gay. Should the child be bisexual, or gay, they will have a supporting environment to develop in. I've got no problem with homosexual adoption.



                            ---------

                            NOW, all that said, final comment.

                            I've got no problems with gays, my favorite teachers were gay (all women writers), my ex gf who i'm very close to is bi, and i've got a couple random gay friends. What I do dislike, however, are totally flaming fags! Being gay doesn't look any different than being straight.... but whats with those people who talk all excited with a really loud lisp while making flamboyant hand gestures and posing in their very bright colored clothing?
                            That does annoy me.
                            |TG|Switch

                            Better known as:
                            That noob who crashed the chopper.
                            That noob who ran over the mine.
                            That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
                            That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Gay Marriage

                              Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
                              True, but thats also because even ancient cultures viewed homosexuality as unnatural and taboo.
                              Yeah, Atomic Dog is right, this appears to be untrue. The greeks neither viewed homosexuality as unnatural nor taboo, at least in the case of male-male homosexuality. It's not clear with female-female.

                              It appears that homosexuality was fairly well tolerated and widespread in ancient china. It was also well known that many emperors had male concubines. Scholarly references aren't hard to find, although you may need access to jstor for journal articles.

                              I think again, it was Christianity which later came along to spread and popularize the view that homosexuality is unnatural and taboo. The first laws banning homosexuality were found in Leviticus in the Torah or Old Testament. But, laws against homosexuality became widespread only after Christianity became widespread. As far as government sanctions against homosexuality, it doesn't appear widespread until after 1000CE. So it seems that the view that homosexuality is unnatural and taboo has actually been absorbed from Christianity. Widespread ostracism of homosexuality happened because Christianity became so popular.

                              However, there are no indications of gay marriage during those times. My conjecture is that marriage began as a socially recognized institution, where by a couple vowed, publically, to take on the responsibility of raising a family. So they get social recognition of certain obligations that are thought to be had by the parents of a household. But, you don't get many offspring from homosexual relations, so there was no need to publically announce that you were going to stick with any particular partner. And so you have traditional heterosexual marriages during ancient times but no homosexual ones because marriage was a social institution that serves as public announcement that these two people are heads of a nuclear family, since the nuclear family at some earlier point in human evolution became an important institution.
                              Last edited by sordavie; 08-07-2007, 09:22 AM.

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