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  • Forecast of Fascist Future?

    So, long time no see. I have been offline at TG for awhile, and am currently to swamped too much to spare time for gaming, hope to return sometime soon. However, enough chit-chat. :row__573:

    I am a Canadian citizen. I am fresh out of high school and can only attest to the single fact that I know very little about this planet on which we reside. Yet I follow current events relatively closely, and like to think I know a few things about somethings. One thing I have been monitoring is the recent trend of American politics.

    I have never lived in the States, and despite what I may claim do I feel to be an expert on it. Yet with so much cultural influence stemming northwards into Canada, it would be hard for me to say I do not understand America. Until these past few years.

    America is turning into a police state at an increasingly alarming rate, degrading into an almost 1984-esque authoritarian government. Freedoms are being overrun, the Constitution trampled, and no one seems to give half a damn. In fact, it seems the majority of these atrocities don't even make the paper! True, it is not quite as bad yet as I make it out to be, but it is certainly heading there, and I it boggles my mind why no alarm bells are ringing.

    Before you scoff, and tell me off back to my igloo, let my make some points.

    This is not the first time this has happened.

    In 1934 a coup was narrowly brought down, a coup aimed at toppling Roosevelt's party in power. A coup aimed at installing a party modeled on Hitler's Nazi party. It seemed that society's elite at the time thought it the only way out of the depression, and this was a fairly major coup planned with some large backers among the likes of Heinz and Maxwell House.

    Nice article here.

    Today, not a coup threatens the US of A, but it's own delusional government. And the blame does not rest solely on Bush's shoulders either. As far as my understanding of US politics reaches; the democrats control both houses, yet they continue to play bend-over with the GOP. It seems both parties are either not willing or incapable to stand up for true American interests. Yes, as a foreigner, my interpretations of true American interests mean little.

    Yet I cannot see an American people desiring a single-party country. To emphasize just how close USA is to reaching that state, consider this. In all of the recorded transitions of open countries becoming dictatorships, a set sequence of steps is identifiable. In good old America, all 10 of these are visible to some extent. True, some more than others, but they are all there.

    Read this.

    Scared yet?

    So it is possible, a fascist America. Let us pray that it never reaches that stage, but please do not dismiss the idea. I'm positive Winston Smith never would have considered the thought that Oceania could have seen the rise of a totalitarian government. True, that is fiction. Yet it hammers home some quite realistic ideas. for those that have had the (dis)pleasure of reading 1984 in school or otherwise, you are hopefully familiar with three re-curring slogans that emphasize the style and views of the authoritarian leader, Big Brother.

    WAR IS PEACE


    Today, America is dominated by something that to any peace-loving person is utterly revolting. I'm sure many of you are quite familiar with the coined term "Military Industrial Complex." It describes a system that since the dawn of the cold war has invaded the US economy so deeply that it now has a choke hold on the American economy. For a country that spends three-quarters of a trillion dollars per year, it is quite believable to imagine just how many jobs that entails.

    So politicians enjoy the lucrative amount of jobs and fuel-injected economy it brings. Defense contractors rake in the cash (and may be in-part owned by the politicians! -- but thats for another thread) while the military get a boost in pride. Everyone wins! Except the soldiers. Of course, then there's the Iraqis, the Vietnamese, the Panamanians... you get the idea. Not to mention that now to keep a strong US economy (I believe?) up, war has become a profitable and easy alternative. In a sense, war has become a sort of peace, a way of life for the American government. Just kinda sucks for the servicemen of America. I strongly recommend the movie "Why We Fight," an award winning documentary on the military industrial complex. If you know you aren't going to do yourself the favour, at least watch this trailer.

    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

    In Canada, we currently have a conservative government in power, and while to my libertarian distaste, they have actually done a half decent job. I can't say I agree with everything they've done - far from it. Yet I do agree with some things, so that's not a half-bad start. It seems though, that only in America can such extreme political figures gain popularity. I speak of former New York mayor, Rudolph W. Giuliani. Sure, he is pro-gay, anti-gun, and essentially a very innovative conservative, that does not make some of the ideas he holds dear any less scary. This, I realize, is all a matter of opinion, yet his view of freedom in particular is especially scary, no matter which side of politics you fancy. Here is an exert of Giuliani speaking at a press conference in 1994, talking of Authority and Freedom:

    "We look upon authority too often and focus over and over again, for 30 or 40 or 50 years, as if there is something wrong with authority. We see only the oppressive side of authority. Maybe it comes out of our history and our background. What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."

    To me, that is the most warped sense of freedom I have seen in a long time. Here is the definition of freedom provided by a free but reliable online dictionary:

    free·dom
    n.
    1. The condition of being free of restraints.
    2. Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
    3.
    a. Political independence.
    b. Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.
    4. Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want.
    5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.
    6. Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom.
    7. Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels.
    8.
    a. The right to unrestricted use; full access: was given the freedom of their research facilities.
    b. The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.
    9. A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference: "the seductive freedoms and excesses of the picaresque form" John W. Aldridge.

    I'm sorry, I just can't see how Giuliani or anyone can wrap there heads around that definition. It isn't even close to how we recognize freedom today. In fact, it sounds closer to the definition of opression.

    op·press
    tr.v. op·pressed, op·press·ing, op·press·es
    1. To keep down by severe and unjust use of force or authority: a people who were oppressed by tyranny.
    2. To weigh heavily on: Poverty oppresses the spirit.
    3. Obsolete To overwhelm or crush.

    Digg had a nice article up on this very thing a few days ago, but it was fairly biased and happens to be have taken down by the website. (Good old freedom of speech strikes again?) Here is another one where America's mayor's words can be taken in context of the situation. In context, perhaps they don't sound as bad, perhaps they do. However, what is undeniable is Rudolph Giuliani's desire for control. When he became mayor of New York, crime rates dropped 60%. "Great!" you say. Yet horror stories were plenty. I realize that the previous article is perhaps just liberal propaganda, but I have seen more or less the same thing in many places. I am inclined to fear the worst for this man. And this man just so happens to be in the runnings for president!?!

    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

    Perhaps the most revolting aspect of all. Let me tell you a story. The story begins with a great America, a proud America. An America where the government very much served the people, not the other way around. From the turn of the 20th century, through the 40's and into the early 60's, America more or less was a populace very much in control of it's government. In fact, America was very involved in it's politics. Today there seems to be less general interest in politics than 30 years ago. As a young adult, I see this everyday. Out of the broad circle of 30-40 friends I have, I can maybe talk politics willingly with a mere 5. Yet for the most part, Canada seems to be immune to this epidemic. So why is America so zombified when it comes to current events?Here is an interesting article on the concept of the idiocracy of America.

    Here are some things the majority of American people have more or less "missed" over the past few months. (Yes, these are all true.)

    Bush abolishes the 5th amendment.
    Basically, your president can make himself a dictator whenever he sees fit...

    Well since we no longer care about the 5th amendment, why not have the legal ability to depossess anyone who stands in the war's way of their possessions. This is so loosely defined it could even include protesters. Gross. Straight from the White House.


    And it certainly is not just the American people. In fact, if one thing is to blame it is the American media.

    Here, Fox MSNBC, CNN and CBS all censored the Iowa Straw Poll results. The article lists as only Fox doing it, but upon further examination they were guilty as charged. (Google it if you don't believe me.)

    http://www.chrisbrunner.com/2007/08/...polls-results/

    And lastly, don't forget that big brother IS watching you.

    I'm interested in gathering some opinions of Americans and fellow foreigners alike, does anyone else not think all this is [email protected]#$%'in-Outrageous!

    Personally, IMHO: America, WTHU.

  • #2
    Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

    The USA does not have the nationalism drive and has too much individuality to become a mirror of 1930's Germany. While the government will continue to overstep it's bounds until the country rights itself change does happen even if it is slowly and things will work out whether through elections or violence.
    |TG-6th|Snooggums

    Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

      Originally posted by snooggums View Post
      The USA does not have the nationalism drive and has too much individuality to become a mirror of 1930's Germany. While the government will continue to overstep it's bounds until the country rights itself change does happen even if it is slowly and things will work out whether through elections or violence.
      Yet change can work two ways. If change is happening slow enough that no one notices a difference, newer generations will have a completely different version of political reality than older generations. If you grow up in a world where free speech is limited, or perhaps the whole concept of freedom is limited, you don't really have a desire to change. It's not like countries "want" fascism either, most often there are several key factors driving the people into support. The way I see it, the only thing America is really lacking from 1930's Germany is a depression and massive inflation.


      The other thing to consider, something that has only recently evolved in the political world are think tanks, giant corporations used solely to generate political spin, ideas and well thought out publicly "fashionable" agendas by stretching the truth obscene amounts. Sometimes, nothing is what it seems in this modern political battleground..

      But perhaps you are right. I never stated the US will fall to an authoritarian government, only that more and more it seems like it could. However, certainly the best path does not lie with the ignorant dismissal?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

        A thought occurs: one very cool thing about the internet is that the things you say in your teens and early 20s will now be preserved for review for the rest of your life. I only have vague memories to make me wince, not a word-for-word transcript. This is so much better. :D

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

          Foxoq is a pretty amazing writer for his age. Impressive, to say the least.

          Yes, the military industrial complex is indeed problematic. But let's be serious: The gripe here is about the Iraq war, and the Iraq war was not started by the MIC. It was started by wrongheaded idealists who wanted to change the world for the "better."

          Did Hitler invade Poland, France, and Russia because he was in the pocket of the MIC? No. He invaded them to change the world for the "better." Did Stalin invade Poland and Scandinavia because he was in the pocket of the MIC? Of course not. We can continue this line of reasoning further. I don't think Mao was in the pocket of China's MIC. I don't think China had an MIC back then. Motivations behind peoples actions are diverse, difficult to identify, and often unknown even to them. But I feel pretty confident in saying that the MIC did not drive America's recent adventures.

          It is very comforting to believe that the bad things in the world are driven by peoples cold and calculated decisions. But the truth is quite a bit more unsettling. The truth of the matter is that American leaders set out to improve the world as best they could, and this was the best they could come up with. Think about that for a moment. It's quite frightening. More frightening that the MIC.
          A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

          "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

            Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
            It is very comforting to believe that the bad things in the world are driven by people's cold and calculated decisions. But the truth is quite a bit more unsettling. The truth of the matter is that American leaders set out to improve the world as best they could, and this was the best they could come up with. Think about that for a moment. It's quite frightening. More frightening that the MIC.
            QFT.

            -Zephyr
            You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

            You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

            Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

            Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

            We are no clan.
            We are not a single game.
            We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
            We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

              Originally posted by Foxoq View Post
              The way I see it, the only thing America is really lacking from 1930's Germany is a depression and massive inflation.

              And this very thought that you express speaks volumes of what you do not know or understand. Deep down, of course, this is simply a gripe about the war in Iraq and the current administration of my nation. If it weren't, you would not have such a shallow view of the events you are considering. No single reason or force drives anything on the scale of a nation, and to think so is childish and simplistic beyond belief.

              Originally posted by Zephyr View Post
              I'm 19 and the Internet makes me feel like an old man. All of this has happened before, its just manifested itself differently. Rather than a bunch of idiots out drag racing cars and running from the cops you get an Internet filled with absurd rhetoric and manifestos by power hungry mega-corporation/political/military industrial/5 Jew Bankers conspiracy nuts. Hate the guys with the power. America has the power. Hate it. Very simple, easy, and effective if you're insecure and ignorant.

              -Zephyr


              Ahh, how true. I hope you don't mind me quoting you from another thread, Zephyr, but It expresses my feelings on the subject quite nicely.
              Last edited by Silas Ender; 08-16-2007, 03:13 AM.
              Life in Bogota is a lot like a big box of Colombian chocolates. You never know when you'll get blown up by the FARC.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                Not a problem, I just happen to be copying that Soviet infantry manual quote out of your profile and emailing it to one of my Russian friends, so we'll call it even.

                -Zephyr
                You were once like the newbie who needed a hand from above and TacticalGamer gave you it.

                You owe the newbie who comes after you that same outstretched hand from above on your honor as a Tactical Gamer.

                Tactics at TG come from trust and friendship, not meticulous detail and rigid discipline.

                Everyone should be assumed mature until proven otherwise.

                We are no clan.
                We are not a single game.
                We are mature, intelligent, and cooperative individuals.
                We are TacticalGamer, a community above and beyond its name.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                  Originally posted by Silas Ender View Post
                  And this very thought that you express speaks volumes of what you do not know or understand. Deep down, of course, this is simply a gripe about the war in Iraq and the current administration of my nation. If it weren't, you would not have such a shallow view of the events you are considering. No single reason or force drives anything on the scale of a nation, and to think so is childish and simplistic beyond belief.

                  Actually what he posted is just history repeating itself. Him stating that all we need is a depression is just showing that the USA is NOT to far off of what has happened in the past. Not shallow just pointing out the flaws.


                  The MIC might not be behind invasions or at least the driving force but they do seem to help speed up the process. Only difference from USA and Germany is we aren't killing off an entire race/culture, but then again we are trying to assimilate our warped sense of democracy into a culture that is not setup to handle it.

                  History is a great thing, very fascinating and once you recognize that you will understand the world and its actions alot better.
                  that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                  -Vulcan

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                    Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                    Actually what he posted is just history repeating itself. Him stating that all we need is a depression is just showing that the USA is NOT to far off of what has happened in the past. Not shallow just pointing out the flaws.
                    No. Stating that the only thing separating the United States from 1930's Germany is W-R-O-N-G. Incorrect. To express your belief that it is true simply reveals your ignorance of the subject. I also believe that his view is as astoundingly simplistic as it is because deep down, it is simply motivated by the Iraq war and his incorrect perception of the current administration of the United States. See the quote from Zephyr in my previous post for a good summary of how I feel about it.

                    Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                    The MIC might not be behind invasions or at least the driving force but they do seem to help speed up the process.
                    No, they don't. Sorry, but when the President sits down with the JCS and the Secretary of Defense, they don't say(Or mean, really deep down ) "Hey, we could make a total killing off the Defense Industry if we went to war. Let's do it!". Of course, that is simply my belief. Also, warfare is hardly vital for the Defense Industry to flourish. The 'MIC" made far more during the Cold War than it has during the Vietnam war or either of the Iraq Wars.

                    Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                    Only difference from USA and Germany is we aren't killing off an entire race/culture..
                    This is laughable, and anyone with an understanding of history(Not just 'history', but economic history, sociological history, and political history ) would know this to be completely untrue. I am not trying to be mean or insulting, but this is simply FACT.


                    Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                    History is a great thing, very fascinating and once you recognize that you will understand the world and its actions alot better.
                    This is going to sound like bragging, but it really isn't. I am just trying to demonstrate my level of interest and knowledge on the subject. You're talking to a guy that started taking college level history in his sophomore year of high school. History has always been my favorite subject, and you are hard pressed to find something I enjoy more. However, it is simply being butchered and ignored here. I could find more depth(And thusly, truth ) in an eighth grade textbook.
                    Life in Bogota is a lot like a big box of Colombian chocolates. You never know when you'll get blown up by the FARC.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                      Originally posted by Silas Ender View Post
                      No. Stating that the only thing separating the United States from 1930's Germany is W-R-O-N-G. Incorrect. To express your belief that it is true simply reveals your ignorance of the subject. I also believe that his view is as astoundingly simplistic as it is because deep down, it is simply motivated by the Iraq war and his incorrect perception of the current administration of the United States. See the quote from Zephyr in my previous post for a good summary of how I feel about it.

                      I fail to see why its so wrong to be like 1930s Germany. Hitler was a brilliant man, until the point he started mass killings of people. He took a country that was rebuilding from a complete economic meltdown and turned it into a European super power within a matter of 15 years. There is nothing wrong with his perception of our warped democracy at all. He is using different eyes then what an American can use, outside in sort of thing.


                      Originally posted by Silas Ender
                      No, they don't. Sorry, but when the President sits down with the JCS and the Secretary of Defense, they don't say(Or mean, really deep down ) "Hey, we could make a total killing off the Defense Industry if we went to war. Let's do it!". Of course, that is simply my belief. Also, warfare is hardly vital for the Defense Industry to flourish. The 'MIC" made far more during the Cold War than it has during the Vietnam war or either of the Iraq Wars.
                      I beg to differ, so why did all those no bid contracts go to haliburton*? Or even defense contracts, it goes to lowest bidder, which in return makes them the most money. And the MIC has made more money since the end of the cold war then it did during. Now they are making money off of defensive and offensive. More countries can purchase tech from us and more countries are able to


                      Originally posted by Silas Ender
                      This is laughable, and anyone with the slightest understanding of history(Not just 'history', but economic history, sociological history, and political history ) would know this to be completely untrue. I am not trying to be mean or insulting, but this is simply FACT.
                      I think I have a better grasp of history then you think. Ive taken a few college courses in my day, let alone the fact i was a history major for 2 years of college. Now which part of my statement is funny, the part about us installing a warped government type into a culture/religion that is not built for democracy. Or the fact that the USA is like Germany because we are A) pushing our views on the those around us, B) using force to do so in many parts of the world, C) "defending" our positions to those in the world that disagree, or D) Taking some rights of the citizens, thats questionable but i wanted a D.




                      Originally posted by Silas Ender
                      This is going to sound like bragging, but it really isn't. I am just trying to demonstrate my level of interest and knowledge on the subject. You're talking to a guy that started taking college level history in his sophomore year of high school. History has always been my favorite subject, and you are hard pressed to find something I enjoy more. However, it is simply being butchered and ignored here. I could find more depth(And thusly, truth ) in an eighth grade textbook.

                      Good for you, and if i had a cookie id give it to you. You have your interpretations of history and I will have mine. Lets leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the sandbox, i hate giving neg rep.
                      that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                      -Vulcan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                        Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                        The truth of the matter is that American leaders set out to improve the world as best they could, and this was the best they could come up with. Think about that for a moment. It's quite frightening. More frightening that the MIC.
                        Cash is King

                        Democracy<Capitalism<Imperialism

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          I fail to see why its so wrong to be like 1930s Germany. Hitler was a brilliant man, until the point he started mass killings of people. He took a country that was rebuilding from a complete economic meltdown and turned it into a European super power within a matter of 15 years.
                          Did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say that there was something wrong with the United States being "like" 1930's Germany(Though there is, of course ) , I said that it is incorrect, untrue, false. To state it simply, there is far more separating the United States from 1930's Germany than a depression and massive inflation.

                          As to how it is so wrong to to be like 1930's Nazi Germany, that should be obvious. What about Kristallnacht? For the sake of brevity, I will quote from(Ugh, I know ) the Wikipedia article on Nazi Germany:



                          Originally posted by Wikipedia
                          The Nazis also undertook programs targeting "weak" or "unfit" people, such as the T-4 Euthanasia Program, killing tens of thousands of disabled and sick Germans in an effort to "maintain the purity of the German Master race" (German: Herrenvolk) as described by Nazi propagandists. The techniques of mass killing developed in these efforts would later be used in the Holocaust. Under a law passed in 1933, the Nazi regime carried out the compulsory sterilization of over 400,000 individuals labeled as having hereditary defects, ranging from mental illness to alcoholism.

                          Another component of the Nazi programme of creating racial purity was the Lebensborn, or "Fountain of Life" programme founded in 1936. The programme was aimed at encouraging German soldiers — mainly SS — to reproduce. This included offering SS families support services (including the adoption of racially pure children into suitable SS families) and accommodating racially-valuable women, pregnant with mainly SS men's children, in care homes in Germany and throughout Occupied Europe. Lebensborn also expanded to encompass the placing of racially pure children forcibly seized from occupied countries — such as Poland — with German families.
                          In the 1930s, plans to isolate and eventually eliminate Jews completely in Germany began with the construction of ghettos, concentration camps and labour camps.

                          What was I thinking? Of course there is nothing wrong with being nearly identical(I mean, if the only things separating us is a depression and massive inflation ) to 1930's Germany. Those guys really had it right. Heck, me and my buddies just got back from executing the mentally and physically challenged last night! We could just forcibly sterilize them instead. I mean, if it doesn't result in "mass killings", it's alright, yeah?


                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          There is nothing wrong with his perception of our warped democracy at all. He is using different eyes then what an American can use, outside in sort of thing.
                          Yes, there is, because he is vastly oversimplifying current and past situations, and is blatantly incorrect in some of his assertions.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          I beg to differ, so why did all those no bid contracts go to haliburton*?
                          Perhaps they were the best suited for the job? But, I'll admit that it is possible that they were given the contracts because of close administration ties to the corporation. However, I still laugh at the idea that it played any role in our entry into war.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Or even defense contracts, it goes to lowest bidder, which in return makes them the most money.
                          Because they get the contract? It allows the government to get the cheapest equipment possible(At least initially. This can lead to far greater service costs down the road ) .

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          And the MIC has made more money since the end of the cold war then it did during.
                          While I cannot find any figures of Defense Industry earnings of the two eras compared in time to include them here, I would seriously doubt that they have made more money selling to and producing for the U.S. government since the end of the cold war. After all, we're talking about the Defense Industry and it's effects on American Foreign policy, not about what they do with other nations.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Now they are making money off of defensive and offensive.
                          That makes no sense. They were developing just as much offensive and defensive military technology back then as they are now. Missile defense, nuclear weapons(Miniaturization of the warhead and minimization of the fallout has been the mian goal since the 50-60's ) , tanks(Does the armor on the tank count as defensive? ;) ) , small arms, body armor, artillery platforms, jets, bombers, attack helicopters, transport helicopters, camping gear, footwear, uniforms, water filtration/purification systems, NVGs, optics, weapons systems on battleships, trucks/cars, and the ammunition/ordinance used by all of it. Defensive and offensive technology is almost totally overlapping. A tank can be used to defend your nation via the destruction of the enemy, as can a rifle or a polished rock.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          More countries can purchase tech from us and more countries are able to
                          That's just the free market and developing nations at work, and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are talking about the Defense Industry dictating American Foreign policy.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          I think I have a better grasp of history then you think. Ive taken a few college courses in my day, let alone the fact i was a history major for 2 years of college.
                          I was not attempting to say that my education is any more complete than your own. What I WAS trying to get across is that my interest in history is one of the deeper passions I have, and that my knowledge is, though it is perhaps arrogant of me to think so, certainly above average. It was in response to this:
                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          History is a great thing, very fascinating and once you recognize that you will understand the world and its actions alot better.



                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Now which part of my statement is funny, the part about us installing a warped government type into a culture/religion that is not built for democracy.
                          This requires elaboration. Who is "us", what/where is this "warped government", and of what "type" is it? I assume Iraq. Well, the Nazi occupations and our occupation of Iraq are two very different things. When we start enslaving them and shipping them off to death camps by the millions, then perhaps we can compare the two.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Or the fact that the USA is like Germany
                          Germany when? I assume the 30's. This was the funny part.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          because we are A) pushing our views on the those around us
                          You're giving the Nazi's a lot of credit to say that they were simply pushing their views on those around them. Nazi foreign policy was(Mostly ) defined by Lebensraum, Aryan racial purity and revenge for previous humiliation. The stated goal for the Nazi occupation was typically to enslave/kill the population and replace it with 'pure' Germanic peoples. As a point of clarification, I assume you are referring to foreign policy, as you used "we" and "our" in your statement. Unless you are actively pressing your beliefs onto those around you, in which case I was incorrect.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          B) using force to do so in many parts of the world
                          This I cannot dispute, though I would argue that the foreign interventions of the United States are typically ideologically based and relatively 'innocent'. But I thought you were asserting that we were undertaking these causes to pump more money into the Defense Industry, not to push our beliefs on others.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          C) "defending" our positions to those in the world that disagree
                          I am afraid I do not understand. By "defend", what do you mean? Invade? We have never undertaken a war against a nation simply because they do not agree with us on an idealogical matter.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          or D) Taking some rights of the citizens, thats questionable but i wanted a D.
                          We are a democracy, and the citizens of this nation elect the officials that create laws, and who lessen or increase restrictions upon our freedom. If the rights of citizens are restricted, then it is the citizens who have done it. You could say that you didn't vote for (Insert name of person who restricted X freedom ) , but I would simply reply that you don't get to pick politicians yourself. Only the majority can decide. As to voter apathy, it is your RIGHT to choose not to vote. Surely you don't want that taken away?

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Go for you, and if i had a cookie id give it to you.
                          Thanks. If you happen to find any chocolate chip ones lying around, send one over.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          You have your interpretations of history and I will have mine.
                          Thusly, the discussion. However saying that "the only thing America is really lacking from 1930's Germany is a depression and massive inflation" is factually wrong.

                          Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                          Lets leave the name calling and personal attacks out of the sandbox, i hate giving neg rep.
                          When did I call you a name? Or make a personal attack on you(Which would mean that I made an attack on you as a person, which I did not ) ? I made aspersions on your case, not you as a person.
                          Life in Bogota is a lot like a big box of Colombian chocolates. You never know when you'll get blown up by the FARC.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                            Lets all just settle on the simple truth. Anyone who doubts that the American government has anything but the best intentions is dead wrong. Theres no way that individuals with enormous amounts of political and financial power will use it for anything but the betterment of man kind. There are no tacit intentions or conspiratorial plans in ANYONES head.

                            Clearly, people in power are there because they are beacons of intelligence and good will. Bush, for example, has spent his entire life eagerly perusing wisdom and with that goal he has lead our country to the forefront of selflessness and diplomacy, all thanks to his own merit.

                            Fox, you're a loon to berate us with 'facts' and self evident 'opinions'. Seriously man, go get reeducated. I'm sure we'll have reeducation institutions up shortly. Once we're done with our gulags.
                            |TG|Switch

                            Better known as:
                            That noob who crashed the chopper.
                            That noob who ran over the mine.
                            That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
                            That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Forecast of Fascist Future?

                              Originally posted by Foxoq View Post
                              Yet change can work two ways. If change is happening slow enough that no one notices a difference, newer generations will have a completely different version of political reality than older generations. If you grow up in a world where free speech is limited, or perhaps the whole concept of freedom is limited, you don't really have a desire to change. It's not like countries "want" fascism either, most often there are several key factors driving the people into support. The way I see it, the only thing America is really lacking from 1930's Germany is a depression and massive inflation.
                              Slow change is how the current situation got set up, I agree, but that is also how women got the right to vote, minorities were provided equal rights (and over time will actually get them) and many other positive changes happen. All change happens slowly although there is sometimes a sudden end to the long term change (women had been fighting for that right to vote for decades if not centuries).

                              You really don't have enough experience to compare the current US to 30's Germany, there really isn't any good comparisons to be made. While somethings appear the same on the outside it is only when they are oversimplified, ie invading another nation that cannot fight back (Iraq and Poland). The difference is that Germany invaded to expand the German Empire to create one large nation by popular opinion, the US invaded because of misinformation of a 'threat', revenge against Saddam by Bush and economic reasons (oil). The comparison or saying it is only one or two steps away is just not accurate at all.

                              The other thing to consider, something that has only recently evolved in the political world are think tanks, giant corporations used solely to generate political spin, ideas and well thought out publicly "fashionable" agendas by stretching the truth obscene amounts. Sometimes, nothing is what it seems in this modern political battleground.
                              Politics have always been like this, before think tanks there were cabals and secret societies and royalty. The front put up by the government is always misleading, whether it is to hide weakness from enemies, to ease the population or to expand. Some reasons are good, some are bad, but government and people as a species almost always mislead.

                              But perhaps you are right. I never stated the US will fall to an authoritarian government, only that more and more it seems like it could. However, certainly the best path does not lie with the ignorant dismissal?
                              If the US will fall to an authoritarian government it will be because the people ask for it (like they are currently asking to be violated at airport screenings, having their rights removed like some cities have removed guns, or other requests for the reductions of their liberties). It won't be all the people and some people like me will oppose anything we disagree with in our own ways such as reminding those around us of what they are giving up. While I may not have taken up arms against the government or sat at the capitol seeding dissent do not take my lack of overt resistance to be ignorant dismissal. I realize that some people will need to be shown personally how bad giving away their rights are before they will oppose it and all I can do is provide information. It will have to progress to white Christian people being held at Gitmo before the majority of the US thinks it is a bad idea, and that is a shame. Until that happens the only ignorant people on that idea are the ones that think it's ok because they are foreigners or terrorists even though none are getting their basic rights to trial, even if they are American citizens (foreigners should get a trial to, the constitution says all men [people] are created equal, not all American citizens).
                              |TG-6th|Snooggums

                              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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