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  • jex
    started a topic FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Warnings precede party conventions

    FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    By Karen Abbott, Rocky Mountain News
    July 24, 2004

    Law enforcement officers visited several Denver young people Thursday to warn them against committing violence at the Democratic and Republican national conventions.

    "This is part of an ongoing FBI investigation with the Joint Terrorism Task Force," Colorado FBI spokeswoman Monique Kelson said Friday. "That's all that we can comment right now."

    The Joint Terrorism Task Force includes officers from local law enforcement agencies.

    Mark Silverstein, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Colorado, said young people living at two locations in Denver reported the visits to the ACLU and that similar visits have occurred elsewhere in the United States in recent days.

    He said officers told the Denver young people that they were visiting "protesters and anarchists."

    "It's an abuse of power, designed to intimidate these kids from exercising their constitutional right to protest government policies and associate with others who want to protest government policies," Silverstein said.

    Denver police public information officers referred inquiries to the FBI on Friday night.

    Sarah Bardwell, 21, said six officers arrived about 4:30 p.m. Thursday at the Denver home she shares with four other young people. Two houseguests also were there, she said.

    The six officers identified themselves as four FBI agents and two Denver police officers, but declined to give their names after the young people declined to give theirs, Bardwell said.

    One officer said he took the young people's refusal to give their names as "noncooperation" and said he would have to use "more intrusive efforts to get his job done," Bardwell said.

    "We had really no idea what was going on," she said.

    "They told us in a joking way that they were doing community outreach and getting to know the neighbors," she said.

    Then the officers said they were "doing some preventative measures and investigating," she said.

    She said the officers asked three questions: Are you planning to be involved in any criminal acts at the national conventions? Do you know anybody who is? Are you aware that if you assist or know anybody planning any criminal acts and do not report them, it's a crime?

    "We declined to answer," Bardwell said.

    She said she refused to answer on principle, not because she's hiding anything. She said she doesn't plan to attend either party's national convention.

    "I would normally be completely open," Bardwell said.

    Silverstein said law enforcement officers made a similar visit to another Denver home, occupied by four or five young people.

    Bardwell said she and her housemates believe they were visited because they have participated in protests in the past - including one the day before against the recent shooting death of a 63-year-old disabled man by a Denver police officer who was looking for someone else and mistook a soda can the man was holding for a gun.

    Other causes in which she has been active include protests against Columbus Day as a celebration of oppression of native people, work with an organization that collects food donated by grocery stores for homeless people and anti-war protests, Bardwell said.

    She is an intern with the American Friends Service Committee, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in the 1940s for its work against violence. AFSC also advocates for prisoners' rights.

    "I think it was an intimidation tactic and it was designed to threaten people who are analyzing our current government and its policies and the system in the United States - an intimidation tactic that is used to crush any form of resistance or dissent or public expression of disapproval," Bardwell said.

    She said the visit from law enforcement officers motivated her to learn more about her rights and to be "even more active in my community."

    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...061282,00.html

  • Mateo
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    Right....just keep telling yourself that as the ACLU tries to make laws through the judicial system.....
    Actually, the judiciary is increasingly politicized to the right, so how exactly is the ACLU getting their agenda across? They only win on things that are bedrock, fundamental American rights, that the court has to uphold if the Constitution means anything.

    and communism is take what you need produce what you can, sound very liberal minus the produce what you can part.
    I don't get this. Did you ever read a definition of communism? Take what you need/produce what you can is capitalist not communist. Communism is about the equitiable distribution of a society's wealth via redistribution, an effect which we achieve through taxation. I don't see any great agenda there.

    To be honest, America is on the decline because of leftist P.C., anti wealth, pro fringe group, and activist judges that eat up what the ACLU is selling.
    Says the right leaning propaganists. America is at its best when ideas of equality are upheld. As for activist judges, there are laws that have to be upheld, whether the right likes them or not. If judges are acting in an activist fashion, then the decisions will be overturned on appeal. Funny how few cases get overturned on appeal when the ACLU is involved. It's not from activism: it's the Constitution. If the right wasn't so busy using it as toilet paper, maybe they might actually read it sometime.

    If you really think the ACLU is anything other than anti american and pro socialism just look at the causes they champion. Also, communism isnt dead, it is alive and well in the democratic party.
    I'm a Democrat. I'm not a communist any more than you are some inbred, knuckle dragging redneck. Name calling sucks, doesn't it?

    To the point: democrats uphold, as a party, the idea that the proper role for government is not to stifle economic growth, but to ensure that continued progress does not leave a vast gender or racial underclass. It's closer to socialism, I suppose, but it's not communism.

    Equality, doesnt exist; i maybe smarter then some and dumber than others. This idea that everyone is equal is such a lie. Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, not in ones ability.
    Legal equality is not meritocracy. Equality under law is what we are trying to achieve, that's the ideal. That means color/relision/gender/sexual blindness in both the execution, and the legislation of laws. Maybe that's a threat to "right thinking" individuals, but that is the true promise of our founding fathers. To deny that, is to deny America.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheFeniX
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    You know what fenix after reading this post, the one on the matrix and various others, I have come to realize that arguing with you is futile...you hold yourself in such high regards that debating with you will only raise my Blood Pressure. Therefore, when it comes to your pontificating I will respectfully hold my tongue.
    You just pigeon-holed an entire subsect of American politics as "Un-American" and I called you on it to provide at least one shred of evidence that it's true. And that raises your blood pressure?

    It's not like I'm just hammering away at you for grins. Most of the times I "lay into someone" is when they make an arguement based on some belief they have and try and pass it off as fact. That's part of debating.

    If I made an off-hand comment like "All Christians are bad people" I'd damn sure expect someone to call me on it. But then again, I never like dealing in absolutes.

    Edit: I missed this:
    I hope the FBI and CIA are doing all they can in order to protect me...if that mean flushing a holy book
    What if it was the Christian bible they were flushing?
    Last edited by TheFeniX; 05-27-2005, 03:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CingularDuality
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by jex
    It's the reason for appraoching them which is at concern here - and implied threats. It doesn't matter that "no interviews where conducted", the point is that these people were singled out because they were suspected of protesting.

    Since when is that a crime and since when did that mean having police officers come round to your door?

    Police talk to people to investigate crimes, or possible crimes. No links to crime where reported as far as I can see, so why are the police hounding and singling out these people?

    Or more simply put - Why were these people singled out?
    Because more and more protests are turning violent? Especially by groups like these? They were not "suspected of protesting", they were KNOWN protestors suspected of plotting criminal activity.

    Your questions seem to be idealistic and rhetorical. You know why they were singled out and you're unwilling to admit that it's a good idea to remind these thugs that they're being watched. There's nothing illegal or immoral about having the police watch people who are suspected to be planning criminal activity. There's also nothing illegal or immoral about having the police try to interview these people. It's their job...

    Leave a comment:


  • jex
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by CingularDuality
    OK, I'm still not seeing it...

    Please explain to me how walking up to someone and asking them some questions is government interference? No interviews were conducted! (?) The anarchists simply refused to talk! You and I are free to walk up to anyone on the street, or even up to their front door, ring the doorbell and when the person answers, say, "Do you have any plans to participate in a protest during the convention next month?" Nobody can stop you or I from asking someone a question.

    By the same token, nobody can make that person answer our questions, either.

    No, nobody's rights were violated here.

    If you think they were, then I have no idea how you think any investigations are conducted. Without talking to people, police wouldn't be able to do half of the work that they do...

    It's the reason for appraoching them which is at concern here - and implied threats. It doesn't matter that "no interviews where conducted", the point is that these people were singled out because they were suspected of protesting.

    Since when is that a crime and since when did that mean having police officers come round to your door?

    Police talk to people to investigate crimes, or possible crimes. No links to crime where reported as far as I can see, so why are the police hounding and singling out these people?

    Or more simply put - Why were these people singled out?

    Leave a comment:


  • jex
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    Give me a break.....I hope the FBI and CIA are doing all they can in order to protect me...if that mean flushing a holy book or making sure some crazy liberal doesn't disrupt a convention so be it......The HEAD OF THE ACLU IS A PROFESSED COMMUNIST. Now there is a philosophy that goes against everything American.
    Yeah and so what?

    In a democracy, I can be a nazi if I want - that's what democracy stands for. So basically your saying that the mob controls and if you're not with the mob, your out. Because you dare to have a different opinion from the majority you should be singled out? That's called being a fascist.

    Leave a comment:


  • _Ender_
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    You know what fenix after reading this post, the one on the matrix and various others, I have come to realize that arguing with you is futile...you hold yourself in such high regards that debating with you will only raise my Blood Pressure. Therefore, when it comes to your pontificating I will respectfully hold my tongue.
    You havent met "wolfie" have you?


    lol

    Leave a comment:


  • CingularDuality
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    You know what fenix after reading this post and the one on the matrix, I have come to realize that arguing with you if futile...you hold yourself in such a high reguard that debating with you will only raise my Blood Pressure
    I don't think it's futile. Try tackling his arguments point by point and use facts instead of emotional arguments.

    I happen to have mixed feelings on the ACLU. I love the concept of an organization the looks out for the little guy, but you're right, their leadership has them championing liberal causes almost exclusively.

    Leave a comment:


  • ><JohnGalt><
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    You know what fenix after reading this post, the one on the matrix and various others, I have come to realize that arguing with you is futile...you hold yourself in such high regards that debating with you will only raise my Blood Pressure. Therefore, when it comes to your pontificating I will respectfully hold my tongue.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheFeniX
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    Right....just keep telling yourself that as the ACLU tries to make laws through the judicial system.....and communism is take what you need produce what you can, sound very liberal minus the produce what you can part. To be honest, America is on the decline because of leftist P.C., anti wealth, pro fringe group, and activist judges that eat up what the ACLU is selling.
    And the far-right is all for removing a woman's right to her own body, cramming Jesus down everyone's throat, and giving the enviroment to the highest bidder.

    Two sides to the same coin.

    And communism is the idea around disolution of private property. It's primarily an economic goal, not a politcal one.

    No where do liberals want to take all your stuff. What they do realize is that the larger a country gets, the more people have to work to support society as a whole (well-fare, social security, etc). That's not coummuism, because by helping less fortunate people you can turn them into productive ones thus helping your capitalist empire.

    PS: yes these programs need reform, but the arguement is that they are neccessary not their abuse.

    If you really think the ACLU is anything other than anti american and pro socialism just look at the causes they champion.
    You mean "they're anti-american because they don't push what I define as American."
    Also, communism isnt dead, it is alive and well in the democratic party.
    Oh please, do some research and provide some evidence before spewing right-wing propaganda.

    Equality, doesnt exist; i maybe smarter then some and dumber than others. This idea that everyone is equal is such a lie. Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, not in ones ability. Comradship, define that one for me please.
    The only reason communism doesn't work is because people will always want more than everyone else. No one strives for being an average faceless grunt. They strive to be more wealthy or more powerful.

    And America isn't a democracy no matter how you try and swing it. We're just about the closest thing out there though.

    Leave a comment:


  • ><JohnGalt><
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by rs_al
    Wow, welcome to the 21st century. The commies are gone, the government's got a new ad campaign for selling wars, so we don't have to pretend like a particular form of economics is magically evil anymore, nor do we need to pretend like the US isn't more communist than capitalist these days. Equality, comradeship, and concern for your fellow man are about as American as you can get - and all basic precepts of communism which aren't found in real capitalism.
    Right....just keep telling yourself that as the ACLU tries to make laws through the judicial system.....and communism is take what you need produce what you can, sound very liberal minus the produce what you can part. To be honest, America is on the decline because of leftist P.C., anti wealth, pro fringe group, and activist judges that eat up what the ACLU is selling. If you really think the ACLU is anything other than anti american and pro socialism just look at the causes they champion. Also, communism isnt dead, it is alive and well in the democratic party.

    Equality, doesnt exist; i maybe smarter then some and dumber than others. This idea that everyone is equal is such a lie. Everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, not in ones ability. Comradship, define that one for me please.

    Leave a comment:


  • rs_al
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by ><JohnGalt><
    The HEAD OF THE ACLU IS A PROFESSED COMMUNIST. Now there is a philosophy that goes against everything American.
    Wow, welcome to the 21st century. The commies are gone, the government's got a new ad campaign for selling wars, so we don't have to pretend like a particular form of economics is magically evil anymore, nor do we need to pretend like the US isn't more communist than capitalist these days. Equality, comradeship, and concern for your fellow man are about as American as you can get - and all basic precepts of communism which aren't found in real capitalism.

    Leave a comment:


  • CingularDuality
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by jex
    The point is they didn't just go up to anyone, they targetted specific people on no credible evidence. Targetting people who have protested before and are now on a "list".

    I thought government interference was what the founding fathers were against were they not?
    OK, I'm still not seeing it...

    Please explain to me how walking up to someone and asking them some questions is government interference? No interviews were conducted! (?) The anarchists simply refused to talk! You and I are free to walk up to anyone on the street, or even up to their front door, ring the doorbell and when the person answers, say, "Do you have any plans to participate in a protest during the convention next month?" Nobody can stop you or I from asking someone a question.

    By the same token, nobody can make that person answer our questions, either.

    No, nobody's rights were violated here.

    If you think they were, then I have no idea how you think any investigations are conducted. Without talking to people, police wouldn't be able to do half of the work that they do...

    Leave a comment:


  • ><JohnGalt><
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by Pokerface
    Al Qaeda wants to destroy the American way of life.

    From the sounds of it, the FBI is doing more in that direction than this girl ever could. :-/
    Give me a break.....I hope the FBI and CIA are doing all they can in order to protect me...if that mean flushing a holy book or making sure some crazy liberal doesn't disrupt a convention so be it......The HEAD OF THE ACLU IS A PROFESSED COMMUNIST. Now there is a philosophy that goes against everything American.

    Leave a comment:


  • jex
    replied
    Re: FBI, police visits to young people rile ACLU official

    Originally posted by CingularDuality
    I still don't see what the big deal is...

    If I'm conducting an investigation, I can, and sometimes will, walk up to anyone, ANYONE, that I want to, and start asking them questions. I can walk up to them at home, at work, on the street, on a bus, in a restaurant... I'm sure I'd get in trouble if I was unreasonable, but my point is that there's no Constitutional protection from having someone ask you questions. You don't have to answer the questions.
    The point is they didn't just go up to anyone, they targetted specific people on no credible evidence. Targetting people who have protested before and are now on a "list".

    I thought government interference was what the founding fathers were against were they not?

    Leave a comment:

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