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  • Death by Silent Submission

    Is it just me or is the use of the taser more and more abused? I for one am finding the religious use of it a little more than frightening. Now granted I am ignorant in the ways the law is carried out. I know my rights as a citizen and I know from the moment I'm told I'm arrested I have to be read my miranda rights. Please I can't be alone in this thought, let me know your feelings on the subject.

    First off I'm not pointing to any specific case although I will point a few out. I found a youtube video (I know, I know, please just read on) of this guy getting tasered for what it looks to me are all the wrong reasons. No I do not go on youtube and look for "dudes gettin tased!" but I did happen to run across it.

    [media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc[/media]

    Yah the guy didn't play things right, but that still doesn't mean he deserves a taser. First of all the UHP (Utah Highway Patrol) says that he thought the man was running away, that's why he got tasered. After telling said victim that he got tasered for not following his instructions. That to me sounds like a lawsuit right there. Since when does dealing with the police mean silent submission, roll over and take it up the rear? I think TheFenix, as well as many others of you, could agree that this is not how it should be.

    I wanna point out what your first reaction to having a gun of any sort pointed at you would be, to take a couple of steps back right? If he turns around and starts hoofing it I think it's safe to assume that he's running away. I for one have never seen anyone run away successfully (pause for effect) backwards.

    Another case I'm sure everyone's familiar with is that kid from U.F.
    (Sorry for the really bad video quality)
    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6saJ6VEXOc&feature=related[/media]

    I'm not saying he didn't deserve what he got. The guy was a bit of another name for a donkey. But was using the taser the right course of action? He was after all wrestled to the ground already. And this is College Security I believe, not actual street cops. No I know they are both police officers but the two categories are very different environments and should be treated as such.

    The taser is a weapon and should be treated as such. A weapon should only be used under the most dire of circumstances, such as another person's well-being being threatened. It should not be used as punishment, especially since said person isn't convicted of anything yet. A person wrestled to the ground is in submission and although they may be unruly, at any point was he told he was under arrest? If he was I apologize I didn't hear it.

    He also said specifically not to taser him. I remember hearing of a case where an old man was tasered to death in canada (source please). I believe there are also some health concerns for those with pacemakers. Also what if a person has electronic heart monitors hooked up to them? All these are legitimate concerns in my opinion. Has there once been a case where an officer asks if you have any health problems that may affect his or her use of the taser?

    I don't mean to say that the taser itself is not a useful tool in law enforcement. I believe that we should take a step back and look at things are and see if our policies are handling the situations set forth as best as possible. There's always room for improvement.

    Lastly I wish to point out that these words are solely my opinion, I do not claim to derive any fact other then that which is directly quoted or sourced. I also do not wish to lead anyone to grow distrust-worthy of police. They are not "bad people" and I don't hope to fuel anyone's fire with my argument. Anyone who is putting their life on the line to protect our lives and civil liberties deserves my respect. I just hope it isn't demanded of me.

    Sincerely,
    -Sirusblk

  • #2
    Re: Death by Silent Submission

    Are we going into this again?
    I'll sum up what I've already said on the subject a thousand times:
    The taser, like any other item in a police officer's arsenal carries the risk of abuse. However, the taser is somewhat safer than older means, such as the nightstick, which can kill you with a single well placed blow. The taser is designed to deliver a non-lethal dose of electricity to incapacitate you, and it doesnt always work. I watched an episode of cops last night where the officers tasered a guy who was high on pcp. They hit him with the taser 6 times and the dude still didnt go down. It took 5 big officers just to hold him down to get the cuffs on.

    Personally, I'd rather take a small shock thats gone in a matter of seconds than blunt force trauma, pepper spray (which has a long lasting effect, same with mace), or at worst, a bullet.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Death by Silent Submission

      Originally posted by Ferris Bueller View Post
      Are we going into this again?
      I'll sum up what I've already said on the subject a thousand times:
      The taser, like any other item in a police officer's arsenal carries the risk of abuse. However, the taser is somewhat safer than older means, such as the nightstick, which can kill you with a single well placed blow. The taser is designed to deliver a non-lethal dose of electricity to incapacitate you, and it doesnt always work. I watched an episode of cops last night where the officers tasered a guy who was high on pcp. They hit him with the taser 6 times and the dude still didnt go down. It took 5 big officers just to hold him down to get the cuffs on.

      Personally, I'd rather take a small shock thats gone in a matter of seconds than blunt force trauma, pepper spray (which has a long lasting effect, same with mace), or at worst, a bullet.
      I agree with it being a less lethal alternative. But I still think the policy on when to use it is still "screwy". I think the fact that an officer is willing to resort to using a taser rather than talk to a person and work with them is a bit frightening. I'm not saying all cases. These cases are few and far between, I'm sure. There are times when a taser is warranted and times when it's not.

      Officers aren't above the law, no one is. That's rule number one. They should be held publicly accountable for their use of any lethal force. A taser falls under that.

      Does anyone know the policy of when to use a taser exactly? Or is it just use it when you think it's appropriate? Why would a person wrestled to the ground get tasered?

      I apologize I don't mean to dig up old and dead threads on this.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Death by Silent Submission

        Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
        Is it just me or is the use of the taser more and more abused? I for one am finding the religious use of it a little more than frightening. Now granted I am ignorant in the ways the law is carried out. I know my rights as a citizen and I know from the moment I'm told I'm arrested I have to be read my miranda rights. Please I can't be alone in this thought, let me know your feelings on the subject.

        Yah the guy didn't play things right, but that still doesn't mean he deserves a taser. First of all the UHP (Utah Highway Patrol) says that he thought the man was running away, that's why he got tasered. After telling said victim that he got tasered for not following his instructions. That to me sounds like a lawsuit right there. Since when does dealing with the police mean silent submission, roll over and take it up the rear? I think TheFenix, as well as many others of you, could agree that this is not how it should be.

        I wanna point out what your first reaction to having a gun of any sort pointed at you would be, to take a couple of steps back right? If he turns around and starts hoofing it I think it's safe to assume that he's running away. I for one have never seen anyone run away successfully (pause for effect) backwards.

        And this is College Security I believe, not actual street cops. No I know they are both police officers but the two categories are very different environments and should be treated as such.

        The taser is a weapon and should be treated as such. A weapon should only be used under the most dire of circumstances, such as another person's well-being being threatened. It should not be used as punishment, especially since said person isn't convicted of anything yet. A person wrestled to the ground is in submission and although they may be unruly, at any point was he told he was under arrest? If he was I apologize I didn't hear it.

        He also said specifically not to taser him. I remember hearing of a case where an old man was tasered to death in canada (source please). I believe there are also some health concerns for those with pacemakers. Also what if a person has electronic heart monitors hooked up to them? All these are legitimate concerns in my opinion. Has there once been a case where an officer asks if you have any health problems that may affect his or her use of the taser?

        First off, any 'taser' string must have the following in it. Its somewhat mandatory.

        [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAKbplNGhDo[/media]

        I still get a chuckle out of that. Now to address a few things I've recently become edjumakated with.

        1) If you are arrested you DO NOT need to have your Miranda rights read to you. Your Miranda rights need to be read when you become the focus of the investigation. If a police officer catches you climbing out of your neighbor's window with their TV all he has to do is slap the cuffs on and take you down to booking and lock up. If he doesn't give a damn what you have to say he doesn't have to read you your Miranda rights. Now if you talk first or they start asking questions or soliciting information then those rights need to be read. I'm pretty sure you need to get a form and sign off on them too later on if you're being interrogated.

        2) I was actually surprised to learn that a traffic ticket is a legally binding court document. Well...not really. But what did surprised me was that it is actually a document with bail attached. When you sign a traffic ticket you are in affect posting bail to your own recognizance and signing off for your release that you will appear in court later. Then things get iffy due to backlogs and such, but the fact of the matter is signing a traffic ticket is the same as posting bail. Refusal to sign a traffic ticket is the same as refusing to post bail on recognizance and accepting time in the lock up.

        3) If the officer is alone and feels threatened he may act to reduce that threat. Now things look pretty interesting from the car cam and we can make assumptions. But what about what the officer saw in person? Well you had an argumentative suspect walking towards his car door with his hand in his pocket and he's refusing to put both hands behind his back or in view. What if he had a gun? The matter isn't helped much by the screaming woman in the passenger side who gets out of the car just to yell several times. I actually thought she was going to attack the officer. Its entirely possible, and probably a situation that has happened before, that he was walking towards his door so that he could be closer to an avenue of escape before shooting the officer. Who knows? Its still a possibility and I'm pretty sure a risk you wouldn't want to take if you were in that officer's shoes. Its even more likely he was assuming the man had a gun or weapon because he made sure to search the driver side of the car. Since the man was heading for the driver side door that would be within his span of control during the arrest and needed to see if he actually did have a weapon.

        4) You made note that College security are not the same as street cops. Well College security are not the same as police officers either. College security for the most part are considered private security and not bound by rules and regulations police officers are. Things like the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. The same goes for military contractors and mercenaries. Pretty much private security can get away with whatever they want as long as they can justify to their employer that it was neccessary. If a rent-a-cop wants to shoot out your tires because you were speeding they can if they can get their employer to back them up. Now, that's not to say you can't turn things around and press charges because you could always play the negitive PR card against their employer and get action that way. If a private security officer thinks tasering you will be an effective deterrant to disruptive behavior you will not stop (yelling "Don't tase me" is kinda disruptive in itself) then you better hope the officer with the taser is having second thoughts because there's nothing stopping them or legaly wrong with them doing so.


        In all honesty the guy in the traffic stop was a bit of an idiot and probably deserved what he got. Ignoring all the justifications he gave the officer to tase him he also managed to play his cards completly wrong with that stop. First off if you're being stopped odds are the officer has a reason for stopping you and he believes those reasons are right. You can try to talk him down to a warning, but trying to convince him he doesn't know how to do his job and that he has no reason is just going to piss him off.

        The officer tells you you're speeding and you tell him he's wrong. Well in his mind its your word against his and everyone knows you're a bit bias in your favor. Okay, well sign the ticket and get out of here. Refuse to post your own bail. Fine, get out of the car you're under arrest. Guy gets arguementative and is still trying to convince the officer since he doesn't believe he was speeding. Honest, you're told to get out of the car its a pretty good bet he's not asking for you to show him where he was wrong. He tells you to put your hands behind your head in plain sight and you start walking towards your car door. He tells you to stop and put your hands behind your head and you keep walking towards your door with one hand near your pocket. You get tased and your wife doesn't make matters better by jumping out of the car and screaming in a shrill voice at him in a hostile manner.

        Then you keep telling him to read your rights to you. The officer doesn't give a damn what you have to say since he isn't asking you any questions so he doesn't have to. Besides, if you're asking for your rights you should know one of them is the right to be silent. You then demand the officer tell you why he's under arrest. The officer tells you its because you were speeding and refused to sign the ticket. You don't believe him and keep demanding. Tough luck, that's the law and you lose.
        My sanity is not in question...
        It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


        Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Death by Silent Submission

          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          4) You made note that College security are not the same as street cops. Well College security are not the same as police officers either. College security for the most part are considered private security and not bound by rules and regulations police officers are. Things like the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. The same goes for military contractors and mercenaries. Pretty much private security can get away with whatever they want as long as they can justify to their employer that it was neccessary. If a rent-a-cop wants to shoot out your tires because you were speeding they can if they can get their employer to back them up. Now, that's not to say you can't turn things around and press charges because you could always play the negitive PR card against their employer and get action that way. If a private security officer thinks tasering you will be an effective deterrant to disruptive behavior you will not stop (yelling "Don't tase me" is kinda disruptive in itself) then you better hope the officer with the taser is having second thoughts because there's nothing stopping them or legaly wrong with them doing so.
          This part is ABSOLUTELY true. I used to work for Colorado Security Services in Boulder when I was an undergrad. I got paid to put boots on peoples cars. I made a lot of people mad. They always screamed that I was harassing them and that they were going to call the cops and whatnot. I simply informed them that it took place on private property and as such, I was employed to act as an agent of the property owner. Every time anyone actually did call the cops (which happened a lot), Boulder PD simply told them that I was absolutely correct and unless they wanted their car impounded (increasing the fine from 60 bucks to 380 bucks), they should probably pay me. Oh, we also took care of things like noise complaints and such that the property managers authorized us to do, and the police department loved us for it, it cut WAY down on their busywork.

          Bottom line is this: be aware of where you are. If you're on private property like a university or apartment complex, the police may or may not be the ones who are going to put boot to ass when it comes down to it. I can tell you firsthand that while carrying a weapon does require certification and training, security officers (yes, rent-a-cops) dont necessarily follow the protect-and-serve racket that police do. I'm 5'6" and not that built, so its relatively easy to put me in a situation where I feel threatened and I can tell you with absolute certainty that if I'm in a place where I have authorization to level the playing field, I'm going to use any means necessary to do so, whether that means my ASP baton, pepper spray, taser, or god help you, my sidearm.

          But it's entirely up to my discretion at that point. I dont follow the same rules of conduct as a police officer. I dont have to give you warnings before I take action. I dont have to respect your rights. If your apartment complex tells my boss that I can kick your door down if you're being too noisy, expect me to do so and expect that you cant do anything about it. Thats reality folks. Private domain is an entirely different ballpark than public. It's all about who has the right to do what and where.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Death by Silent Submission

            I think there should be much stricter guidelines on their use, such as preventing any officer or group of officers from using more than one tazer at the same time on someone, or explicitly preventing officers from repeatedly tasing anyone if the taser is ineffective. Tasers being misused by idiot cops results in people dying. Wheres the damn training for these people?

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Death by Silent Submission

              Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
              Does anyone know the policy of when to use a taser exactly? Or is it just use it when you think it's appropriate? Why would a person wrestled to the ground get tasered?
              I've got a really good use-of-force continuum that I'll post later.

              Situations are all different, but a taser is normally used after officer presence, verbal commands and open handed techniques become ineffective, but before deadly force is required.

              Oh, and I'd really like to see where a death has been attributed to a Taser by a medical examiner (as opposed to the media).
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              • #8
                Re: Death by Silent Submission

                Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                Yah the guy didn't play things right, but that still doesn't mean he deserves a taser. First of all the UHP (Utah Highway Patrol) says that he thought the man was running away, that's why he got tasered. After telling said victim that he got tasered for not following his instructions. That to me sounds like a lawsuit right there. Since when does dealing with the police mean silent submission, roll over and take it up the rear? I think TheFenix, as well as many others of you, could agree that this is not how it should be.
                Man, I've watched this several times now, and I can't help but think of the many times I've watched the video of Kyle Dinkheller. This contact looks VERY similar right before the taser is used.
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                • #9
                  Re: Death by Silent Submission

                  Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                  Oh, and I'd really like to see where a death has been attributed to a Taser by a medical examiner (as opposed to the media).
                  Medical examiners are only willing to admit they are a factor in many deaths across the nation, but not the cause. The majority of deaths involve people who are already high on drugs. Where they are not, deaths have resulted from multiple tasings...but still, examiners will only say even 9 jolts plays a "factor" in these deaths and is not the cause.

                  TASER, the company, stands by their product's safety. Certainly they've tested their very own product themselves and are unbiased (due to multimillion dollar contracts with Law Enforcement agencies around the world) about their determinations.

                  Personally, I think tests should carry further than pigs and dogs. Obviously people who are high on certain drugs or under other such mental stresses are in a serious risk of death when it comes to tasing. Maybe studies should be carried out including these common criminal factors before every cop is handed a stun gun.

                  There are other means of submission against unarmed civilians that require no handheld weaponry at all. Most orderlies I know who work with disturbed patients are highly trained in take-down maneuvers...so I find it hard to believe that police aren't as well.
                  | | |

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                  • #10
                    Re: Death by Silent Submission

                    Originally posted by Sirusblk View Post
                    I remember hearing of a case where an old man was tasered to death in canada (source please).

                    Not sure if this is the one you mean, or if it has been in another post, but anyway. But back in october a polish immigrant flew into the vancouver airport. It was his first time flying and he didnt speak english. For some outrageous reasons that havent been fully explained, the man spent around 10 hours in the baggage pickup area without knowing where to go. His mother, who he was coming to visit, also spent hours within the airport trying to find out where he was. For reasons unexplained there were no translators around, and no one to help him. Security also didnt realize that this man had been waiting around in the same spot for hours on end.

                    After so many hours waiting around he got agitated, as you can see in the video. Whats shown in the video is all he was reported to do, throw some stuff off a desk, and hit a stool against a window, it didnt break.

                    The police were called, once the officers arrived, 4 of them, they made little attempt to communicate with him. After he was tasered the officers piled onto him, he was face down as you can see in the video, he died shortly after.

                    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTuQBlsrKqY[/media]


                    The video is a personal recording, not security footage, the RCMP held it for weeks after the incident, while straight out lying about the details of the incident.

                    story on the video
                    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...aservideo.html

                    more bull**** from the RCMP

                    from the story "RCMP spokesman Cpl. Dale Carr said no one can judge what happened to Dziekanski by just watching the video."

                    link to a news story (video) on the RCMP and their bull****. on why they didnt use pepper spray, batons etc

                    [media]http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/bc/ondemand/video/RANKINtaser.wmv[/media]

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                    • #11
                      Re: Death by Silent Submission

                      I don't see anything wrong with what they did. They were dealing with an agitated, aggressive, non-compliant man in a sensitive environment. What would you have had them do if you were their boss and you were there on the scene?
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                      • #12
                        Re: Death by Silent Submission

                        @OP "Don't Tase me ,Bro" vid, those were member of the University Police Department at UF which is a state police department that patrols areas of Gainesville that are near campus and UF property, not security guards with Tasers.

                        All the police/Sheriff Deputies in the area have been tased prior to being issued the taser. I'm not sure if that is standard everywhere, but at least in Alachua County it is.


                        Like ANYTHING, the taser can be abused. There will never be conclusive evidence for tasers because life saving taser incidents aren't as publicized. The UF incident was orchestrated to achieve maximum exposer. I don't believe he wanted to get tasered, but did want a confrontation as he has done several similar things in town all for the camera before. He agreed to leave school at the end of the semester and was essentially ridiculed all over the downtown scene. There are so many instances, like the UF one, where the taser may not save a life, but it is a better option than brute force or a pepper spray variant.

                        Complying with an officers orders at a given moment is not the same as agreeing with whatever the officer wants. If he gives you a ticket for a ridiculous reason, challenge it in court. It even says so. However, refusing to accept the ticket or tearing it up in front of the officer solves nothing. If you believe you are right, then follow the appropriate process. yes it may be inconvenient, but you can't have it both ways. You can't ignore the law(when officer feels you fall under a violation of the law, but you don't) and then want it to protect you in the courts.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Death by Silent Submission

                          Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                          I don't see anything wrong with what they did. They were dealing with an agitated, aggressive, non-compliant man in a sensitive environment. What would you have had them do if you were their boss and you were there on the scene?
                          They had him backed against a wall and surrounded...he was unarmed and obviously frightened and confused...didn't speak a word of english...not to mention he appeared to be a middle-aged man...

                          I'm sure there's gotta be something less brutal they could have done...like...oh..say...grab him and put him to the ground with their own hands rather than tasing the crap out of him until he died?

                          The Taser is a tool...a dangerous one at that. It shouldn't be employed at every sign of "non-compliance." Maybe if he had a knife or something...but the poor guy just stood there surrounded by cops backed against a wall while they essentially killed him.

                          These are the images of law enforcement that the average civilian has to deal with. And personally, the more and more I see...the less and less I want too.
                          | | |

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                          • #14
                            Re: Death by Silent Submission

                            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                            I don't see anything wrong with what they did. They were dealing with an agitated, aggressive, non-compliant man in a sensitive environment. What would you have had them do if you were their boss and you were there on the scene?

                            Non compliant? They knew he didn't speak english, they only issued commands in english, for about 20 seconds. Hardly an attempt at communicating. He made no aggressive moves towards the officers, unless backing away with your hands up is aggressive. They also knew he was unarmed, he was in the secure area of the airport after leaving a plane.

                            As i understand the RCMPs taser policy is to call paramedics if they know they are going to use a taser, evidently they had already decided this on the way in. Yet the paramedics werent called , and none of the officers attempted CPR on the man. Piling onto the back, and possibly neck of a tased person to the ground is probably not in the procedure either.

                            The officers seem to have known there was something wrong with what they did, otherwise why would modify their story. Some/all of the bogus information from the RCMP spokesman supposedly came from the reports of the officers.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Death by Silent Submission

                              Originally posted by Atomic Dog View Post
                              They had him backed against a wall and surrounded...he was unarmed and obviously frightened and confused...didn't speak a word of english...not to mention he appeared to be a middle-aged man...

                              I'm sure there's gotta be something less brutal they could have done...like...oh..say...grab him and put him to the ground with their own hands rather than tasing the crap out of him until he died?
                              I don't know how to get you to understand that the Taser is safer than putting hands on somebody that is aggressive and non-compliant. The Taser doesn't injure people, fighting often does. Fighting with someone is brutal. I can't tell you the number of times I've seen joints dislocated while pain compliance is used by officers. That grinding, crunching sound is awful. The Taser is much nicer than fighting with somebody for everyone involved.
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