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  • Guantanamo Bay

    I have been highly interested in Guantanamo Bay for a while, and thought I'd bring the topic up here for us to discuss. There are many issues at hand, but there are two issues I would like to focus on: the lack of the extension of Habeus Corpus to prisoners and the use of waterboarding as a means to extricate confessions from prisoners.

    Regarding Habeus Corpus- I realize that these folks are not US citizens, and this is why we do not extend Habeus Corpus to them. However, on a level of humanity, I have a very difficult time accepting holding people without charges for years at a time, and withholding information/evidence from the prisoners as to why they are there in the first place. This stinks of HUAC, to me. For those of you who aren't familiar, HUAC was a department in the US Government that was active in outing Communist sympathizers after WWII within the US. They often withheld information on why a person was being questioned on the grounds of "security interests" from the person who was being questioned. I can explain this in greater detail if anyone would like me to do so.

    Secondly, we have waterboarding, which we now know has been used on prisoners being held at Guantanamo. I recently listened to an interview with an ex-CIA agent who had the procedure performed on him as a demonstration. Here is a link to that interview, so you can listen for yourself: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=17181403

    Is it acceptable for us to torture someone to get information that may or may not be reliable? I have a pretty big problem with that idea, personally. I will refrain from getting into my personal opinion at this point, as I am interested in what you guys have to say first and foremost.

    I'd like to hear what you guys think about these issues.

  • #2
    Re: Guantanamo Bay

    Actually we extend habeas corpus to non citizens in the US, the reason it isn't extended to them is they are not in the US so our laws do not apply outside our jurisdiction... If one of those prisoners suddenly appeared in a US court, there would be huge legal issues for those who detained them but until that happens, no US laws have actually been broken. Plus we have no idea if there was a presidential finding (well, I don't know, someone else might) that basically say's, "All US laws are valid except in this circumstance" which actually would make everything they are doing perfectly legal even if they were doing it in your back yard.

    I'm not a big fan of torture personally because tortured person will always do one of 2 things...

    1) say nothing and be tortured until they die.

    2) tell you what you want to hear so the torture stops, whether what they are telling you is truthfull or not, just to make it stop...

    However, it's about time we level the playing field. They torture our guys, while we get lawyers for theirs. Doesn't sound quite equal, does it?

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    • #3
      Re: Guantanamo Bay

      I watched this film and was completely sick by the end.

      Synopsis

      The film tells the story of Ruhal Ahmed, Asif Iqbal and Shafiq Rasul (the 'Tipton Three'); three young British men from Tipton in the West Midlands who were captured by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan in 2001 and detained as "enemy combatants" at Guantánamo Bay, without charge or legal representation, for nearly three years. As well as interviews with the three men themselves and archive news footage from the period, the film contains an account of the three men's experiences following their capture by the Northern Alliance, the subsequent handover to the United States military and their detention in Cuba. It contains several scenes depicting their alleged beatings during interrogation, the use of alleged torture techniques such as 'stress positions' and attempts to extract forced confessions of involvement with Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

      The Tipton Three were all released without charge and without any compensation for their imprisonment in 2004.

      The torture depicted in the film, had to be softened from the detainees' claims for the benefit of the actors; according to Rizwan Ahmed, they were unable to bear the pain caused by the shackles pressing on their legs, and had to have them cushioned. They were also unable to remain in the stress positions depicted for more than an hour; the Tipton Three claim they were left in them for up to eight hours.

      [media]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-599098805530677622[/media]

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      • #4
        Re: Guantanamo Bay

        Waterboarding is fine. Geneva has no hold when the other side does not follow it at all. The US has been far to nice to the scum they are holding there. Also only Citizens of the US have rights in our Republic, not some cowardly terroists for ____istan.
        Battlefield Samurai 'Banzaaaiii!!!

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        • #5
          Re: Guantanamo Bay

          Rights are not created by the US Constitution. They exist on their own, and the Constitution simply enumerates those it protects.

          Thus, everyone in the world has rights, but only the rights of US citizens are protected by the US government.

          The reason we protect the rights of enemy combatants is to ensure that the rights of our own soldiers are protected when they are captured. As you say, if the other side fails to offer quid pro quo, we can stop being nice guys.
          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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          • #6
            Re: Guantanamo Bay

            People have a large misunderstanding about how ineffective torture is in reality. From watching TV, (24 comes to mind first and for-most) we get the notion that these agents are working with a ticking clock and the captive they have is withholding information that could end the threat. He also just happens to be the biggest scum-bag (bordering on mustache twirling evil) on earth so you don't feel sorry for him and they go into pain-staking detail to make this apparent. The hero uses torture (or whatever euphemism they call it), gets the information, and saves the day and countless human lives.

            Things are just not that black and white in reality. Hell, what was the point of torturing (or just holding without trial) a man for 3 years? I guess the info he had would help in 4 years?

            My main issue is the hypocritical stance the government chooses to take with this. "We don't torture." "It's not torture if we're the ones doing it." It's completely hypocritical to talk about bringing democracy and human rights into a country, then proceed to treat suspected criminals in foreign countries far worse than we treat convicted criminals here in America. Unless you feel like going back to the days where cops would beat confessions out of suspects, it's not a good road to go down unless all you care about is conviction rates.

            Yet, everywhere you turn, there's always the apologist saying "they're trying to destroy our way of life" or "they'd do far worse to you." Even if I gave credence to these arguments, many violent criminals here in America fit that catagory.

            Murderers, rapists, and thieves are terrible people and even when we have ample evidence to throw them in jail, they fare far better than anyone suspected of anti-American acts in foreign countries. I just find that line of reasoning stupid: they're bad people so who cares what happens to them.

            Originally posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
            Waterboarding is fine. Geneva has no hold when the other side does not follow it at all. The US has been far to nice to the scum they are holding there.
            Yet, even in America where we actually have a standard of evidence and trails, there are thousands of wrongful convictions a year. And with no evidence needed to detain a person over in Iraq,etc, we're to assume 100% of the people in GB are guilty. Considering how low-key the government is keeping the whole operation and that their standard of evidence seems to be "wrong place, wrong time," I have to wonder if the number of innocent people in GB isn't reaching 50% or more.

            Also only Citizens of the US have rights in our Republic, not some cowardly terroists for ____istan.
            By what definition do you call them cowards? Because they won't come out in mass numbers and take on the world's most powerful military man to man? That reminds me of another county around the year 1776 who was fighting for independence. When you're up against a force that can wipe out any stronghold you happen to have and can't even field armored units and air support, you have to resort to desperate measures to even stand a chance. What's our excuse?

            I'll grant that insurgents aren't exactly playing nice when it comes to POWs, but we want to show them that we're better and/or more moral by.... doing the same thing? But that's ok because America is always the "good guys?"

            If you want to wrestling a pig in his own mud pit, you'd better be prepared to get muddy. Walking out of the mud and claiming to be clean is just as strange as trying to hold a moral high-ground when you're resorting to techniques that you call your enemies evil for using.

            Oh, and to forestall the argument "well, at least we aren't killing our captives:" you should look into the number of "unexplained" deaths of captives the US has in custody.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Guantanamo Bay

              The issue I have with Gitmo is that it bypasses the World Court. There's a neutral coalition Court already set up that costs countless of millions per year to maintain, yet it's rarely if ever used.

              It's like we're above international Law or something. There's no reason to have these folks detained in Gitmo for years when there is a Court with Lawyers already paid for to handle this stuff quickly.

              It's ludicrous.

              The other thing that's dumb is that the investigative arm of the Court isnt taken advantage of. I'd be willing to bet if you give most of these guys a proper trial and investigation that we'll find WAY more info. then they'd ever give us under torture.

              Makes no sense to me.

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              • #8
                Re: Guantanamo Bay

                Tourture is extremly effective. I know some hit jobs have come out on it recently but they are full of poo with an obvious political agenda.

                World Court and the UN are a total joke. It is a haven for Anti American BS and we should remove ourselves from it. Neutral my butt...

                And these items are tourture light. Its not like we are cutting off body parts or doing permant damage or even real physical harm likewhat used to happen in the old days or still happens in other nations. No we just make them uncomfortable and have gotten a lot of information that saves lives.
                Battlefield Samurai 'Banzaaaiii!!!

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                • #9
                  Re: Guantanamo Bay

                  Waterboarding was a popular torture during the Spanish Inquisition.
                  A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                  "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Guantanamo Bay

                    As a non-US citizen I find any use of violence or intimidation repulsive, I find that everywhere you go in the world there are ways of being treated inhumanely for sometimes absolutely no credible reason. Now hear me when I say this, the US is just like every other country in this world and and any that have come before it. In the interest of its own causes and justification it willfully engages in subterfuge/diplomacy/military action. No other nation is different and if Iraq/Syria/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Pakistan were the most powerfull nations an earth they would behave no differently. History has proven that.

                    On the topic of Guantanamo Bay, you do what you must to survive and the fact that the US even has to deal with public outcry for it's interrogation/torture techniques is laughable. Try being held as a POW/Criminal in any Arab nation or worse by a Militant/Tribal faction, I dare you. Please note also you will have no one telling the media that you are only being mildly interrogated(other than to maybe publicly degrade you further on worldwide media sources) HA! Depending on which country you hail from your lucky if they even acknowledge your existence.

                    It's all apples and oranges basically, as cold-hearted and callous as that sounds. No one is innocent here just deal with the fact that these thing have happened and will always happen, just be secure in the thought that it's not happening to you or our loved ones. And may God/Alah/Buddah have ve mercy on our souls. Fin.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Guantanamo Bay

                      Originally posted by kilevvri1 View Post
                      On the topic of Guantanamo Bay, you do what you must to survive and the fact that the US even has to deal with public outcry for it's interrogation/torture techniques is laughable. Try being held as a POW/Criminal in any Arab nation or worse by a Militant/Tribal faction, I dare you. Please note also you will have no one telling the media that you are only being mildly interrogated(other than to maybe publicly degrade you further on worldwide media sources) HA! Depending on which country you hail from your lucky if they even acknowledge your existence.
                      First off, America doesn't have to worry about "survival" in reference to countries in the middle east. With the push of a button, America has the power to wipe out a country (consequences of doing so ignored). A group a insurgents with automatic weapons and IEDs isn't going to do a whole lot to American's as a whole.

                      Further, since when did "eye for an eye" justice make a strong comeback? Hammurabi had little else to work with, but didn't we mature beyond such simplistic justice (read: vengeance) as "Well, they'd do worse to us."

                      Yea, a serial killer would do a lot worse to you than you would to him. Why does he get a pass for being lucky enough to be born in America? And for the record: exactly who are we at war with? Why do POWs even come into play here. Isn't this a policing action? Aren't we trying to establish law and order in Iraq? What kind of order are we trying to establish, because if this is the best we've got, we may as well have left Saddam in charge. He had a pretty good go at the whole "who needs evidence, just lock them away" angle.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Guantanamo Bay

                        Originally posted by TheFeniX View Post
                        First off, America doesn't have to worry about "survival" in reference to countries in the middle east. With the push of a button, America has the power to wipe out a country (consequences of doing so ignored). A group a insurgents with automatic weapons and IEDs isn't going to do a whole lot to American's as a whole.
                        Convenient little escape hatch you built for yourself there...

                        Further, since when did "eye for an eye" justice make a strong comeback? Hammurabi had little else to work with, but didn't we mature beyond such simplistic justice (read: vengeance) as "Well, they'd do worse to us."
                        Gitmo really isn't about justice or punishment. Not that there isn't a place for justice in our conflict, but Gitmo is more about Intelligence Gathering and denying the opportunity for killing Americans to those we believe would take advantage of that opportunity. Feel free to attack the execution of those goals if you like, but its not really fair to phrase the question in terms of justice and vengeance.

                        Yea, a serial killer would do a lot worse to you than you would to him. Why does he get a pass for being lucky enough to be born in America? And for the record: exactly who are we at war with? Why do POWs even come into play here. Isn't this a policing action? Aren't we trying to establish law and order in Iraq? What kind of order are we trying to establish, because if this is the best we've got, we may as well have left Saddam in charge. He had a pretty good go at the whole "who needs evidence, just lock them away" angle.
                        In America, serial killers are first off extremely rare, and secondly almost always confine their attacks to civilians. If we had a large population of serial killers who specifically targetted our police forces with their attacks, I'll bet you we'd see a dramatic change in the way we responded to them damn quickly.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Guantanamo Bay

                          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                          Gitmo really isn't about justice or punishment. Not that there isn't a place for justice in our conflict, but Gitmo is more about Intelligence Gathering and denying the opportunity for killing Americans to those we believe would take advantage of that opportunity. Feel free to attack the execution of those goals if you like, but its not really fair to phrase the question in terms of justice and vengeance.
                          Ding, ding, ding, ding! Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winnah!

                          We're holding on to those guys because we're trying to find out where Ahmed the butcher eats breakfast on Sundays. Why is that important? Because Ahmed the butcher is sleeping with Mustaf's wife. Mustaf is drinking buddies with the guy that rents his garage to the local freedom fighters. The local freedom fighters are contacted by Al Queda officers on occasion. Why is this important? Because those Al Queda officers might let loose where Mr. Johiya is. Mr. Johiya, is, of course, Osama's gay hair stylist.

                          It's nothing like the crap you see on TV. We're looking for information. We're not looking for vengeance. We're not even holding those guys in Gitmo for justice. We're holding them because we're at war and those guys probably have information that can help us win a battle in the war.

                          When should we let them go? When the war is over or we know that can no longer help us or hurt us!

                          See, if we let them go now, they'll go back and tell all their friends what happened. When Mustaf finds out that his wife is sleeping around, he'll kill his wife and bloody Ahmed's nose. Mustaf will then tell his buddy with the garage that people are asking about some guy named Mr. Johiya, and next thing you know there's one less gay hairstylist in the world.

                          We simply can't let them go. They are prisoners of war in a war that may never end.

                          Waterboarding? Sucks to be them.... It's effective and non-injurious. Why in the world would we stop using it?
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                          • #14
                            Re: Guantanamo Bay

                            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                            When should we let them go? When the war is over or we know that can no longer help us or hurt us!

                            See, if we let them go now, they'll go back and tell all their friends what happened. When Mustaf finds out that his wife is sleeping around, he'll kill his wife and bloody Ahmed's nose. Mustaf will then tell his buddy with the garage that people are asking about some guy named Mr. Johiya, and next thing you know there's one less gay hairstylist in the world.
                            For each year someone is kept half the world away your scenario becomes much less likely.
                            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                            We simply can't let them go. They are prisoners of war in a war that may never end.
                            I may not be up on the latest doublespeak but I thought they were specifically not being classified as PoWs otherwise there would be several treaty issues.
                            Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                            Waterboarding? Sucks to be them.... It's effective and non-injurious. Why in the world would we stop using it?
                            Effective intelligence-gathering or just effective torture?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Guantanamo Bay

                              first off, waterboarding is NOT TORTURE, there is no physical pain and 10 seconds after you are done being 'tortured' by waterboarding, you feel just as good as before you started getting 'tortured' there are no outlasting effects that stay around after you get waterboarded, all it does is make the person think they are drowning and going to die, which cant happen if they are waterboarded for hours straight


                              BUT., if we have to torture one person to death, or five, to save group (or 1) of american soldiers, it would be worth it... 5 of them to save one of us is time/resources/money/lives well spent imho... call me heartless if you want, but they choose to strap bombs to their childrens chests to please allah and for an attempt to goto heaven with their 70 virgins
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