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Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

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  • Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

    After looking at Obama, Hillary, and McCain about Border security and seeing that none of them are taking it seriously I become a little angry at them. The whole world knows that our border security guarding the Mexican and American Border is horrible, and you can bet any would-be terrorist knows it as well and as of right now, theres no way we can stop them from crossing.

    It's not a question of if, but when, America is going to be attacked again, and unless one of the candidates step up (For which the Democrats wont, and McCain most likely will not either) we're going to suffer the consequences of another attack due to poor border security. Whether you're for or against illegal immigration shouldn't matter here, since you're life and everyones you know is on the line with this.

  • #2
    Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

    Border security is a pipe dream. A country this large will never, ever have 100% secure borders, no matter what we try to do.

    Besides, the more concerning issue is the fact that like 60% of airport screen tests (with attempts to smuggle a fake bomb) end up failing. Think about that the next time you're in that security line for an hour and they practically strip search your grandma.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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    • #3
      Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

      I found it funny that the debate was co-sponsored by Univision and many of the questions were FIRST asked in Spanish, and then repeated in English. I know that both candidates are walking on Mexican eggshells to try and garner up more of the Hispanic vote. That's messed up in my eyes. Let's stop catering to the illegals in this country and start trying to protect out borders more. Both Republicans and Dems are guilty of this. It's like they are trying to kiss up to the illegals so that one day when they inevitably gain legal status, that party can get credit for it. Buncha sellouts.

      Politicians are so concerned about popularity, that they are willing to sacrifice our security for it.
      "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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      • #4
        Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

        I have a fairly calloused view of this: My opinion is that neither party is going to take border security seriously until your "not if but when" prediction comes true, and so the next attack on America is more or less inevitable. Therefore I'm going to put my hopes on stopping attack #3, and until attack #2 comes by I'm going to take consolation in the fact that my city is highly unlikely to be the target.

        Yes, attack #2 will suck, but we're a strong enough nation to live through it. Well, except for those unfortunate enough to be standing near ground zero. ;)

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        • #5
          Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

          The obvious explanation for their inaction is that they simply don't want our borders to be "secure", because the US is no longer a sovereign nation. You have to remember that these candidates are funded by extremely powerful corporations that WANT the borders to come down. They want a unified earth. Though, they also expect to control it when it is unified.

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          • #6
            Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

            Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
            I have a fairly calloused view of this: My opinion is that neither party is going to take border security seriously until your "not if but when" prediction comes true, and so the next attack on America is more or less inevitable. Therefore I'm going to put my hopes on stopping attack #3, and until attack #2 comes by I'm going to take consolation in the fact that my city is highly unlikely to be the target.

            Yes, attack #2 will suck, but we're a strong enough nation to live through it. Well, except for those unfortunate enough to be standing near ground zero. ;)
            Thats why I'm so annoyed by this, everyone knows it, but the Politicians are too worried about saving their own butts to do anything about it.

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            • #7
              Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

              Originally posted by FatCobra View Post
              After looking at Obama, Hillary, and McCain about Border security and seeing that none of them are taking it seriously I become a little angry at them. The whole world knows that our border security guarding the Mexican and American Border is horrible, and you can bet any would-be terrorist knows it as well and as of right now, theres no way we can stop them from crossing.

              It's not a question of if, but when, America is going to be attacked again, and unless one of the candidates step up (For which the Democrats wont, and McCain most likely will not either) we're going to suffer the consequences of another attack due to poor border security. Whether you're for or against illegal immigration shouldn't matter here, since you're life and everyones you know is on the line with this.

              It's especially disturbing when you think about how many of the 9/11 attackers came in this country through mexico.

              Wait a second. They didn't. Oh yeah - border security had nothing to do with 9/11.

              It still amazes me that, 7 years later, a significant portion of the population thinks that Iraq and/or "Border Security" had thing one to do with 9/11. Nothing personal against you, dude, but you're misinformed.
              Beatnik

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              • #8
                Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                Way to read what you want into his post!

                If you'll take a moment to look more closely at FatCobras words, you'll realize that he didn't say a single word about 9/11. Also, whoever said that "border security" has to refer exclusively to the land border with Mexico? We have crappy border security on ALL of our borders. The only thing special about the border with Mexico is that the massive exploitation of that lax security by illegal immigrants makes it impossible to ignore, the way we ignore all the others. Yes, if a terrorist wanted to sneak into our country, he would have several options to choose from on how to get here. But we KNOW that one of those options is to cross the mexican border, because we KNOW that isn't even close to being secure. The other potential plans all carry at least some risk of being discovered.

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                • #9
                  Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                  There is no historical evidence that Mexican border security poses any kind of legitimate threat to national security in terms of terrorism. The reason I specify terrorism is because there are some who believe the drug trade and the violence accompanying it constitute a security threat. In terms of a national security threat, the Canadian border has more documented cases of terrorist crossings. The only threat posed by the US-Mexican border is that of a lethally perilous journey for those who wish to cross it illegally and the effect on US economic resources by those who do.

                  The only parallel that I see between present-day terrorism and illegal Mexican immigration is that for at least the past decade, American policy has consistently failed to address the root causes of both. Instead of focusing on the failings that cause people to sink to such desparate acts like risking their lives crossing a vast expanse of desert, separating themselves from their families, or suicide tactics, hundreds of billions of dollars are spent on more killing and the building of fences and walls.

                  If you ask me, the fact that the candidates are not taking up the issue of border security is a good thing. Instead, we should all be looking at economic conditions in Mexico, specifically the 'free-market' failings of NAFTA that resulted in the collapse of the Peso in 1995, drastically cutting labor rates in the Mexican economy. Along those same lines, it wasn't hatred for American 'freedoms' that motivated the 9/11 hijackers, but rather the track record of diplomacy in the Middle East - specifically with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel. Hopefully the country will end up with a candidate that is willing to look at the roots of problems before jumping to short-sighted and potentially harmful solutions.

                  I think it's also worth saying that there is a good chance America won't be attacked again if its next President does his or her job well - and by that I don't mean increased military spending.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                    Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                    Way to read what you want into his post!

                    If you'll take a moment to look more closely at FatCobras words, you'll realize that he didn't say a single word about 9/11. Also, whoever said that "border security" has to refer exclusively to the land border with Mexico? We have crappy border security on ALL of our borders. The only thing special about the border with Mexico is that the massive exploitation of that lax security by illegal immigrants makes it impossible to ignore, the way we ignore all the others. Yes, if a terrorist wanted to sneak into our country, he would have several options to choose from on how to get here. But we KNOW that one of those options is to cross the mexican border, because we KNOW that isn't even close to being secure. The other potential plans all carry at least some risk of being discovered.
                    Being around a lot of immigrants (who happen to be Hispanic) I have learned something. Many of them get in legally, they just stay longer than they are supposed to. In fact, of all the illegals I know of, none of them entered illegally. They had papers.

                    Most go back to their country on a regular basis. We don't check them as they leave. When they get back home they get a new Visa (usually with a bit of payola to a clerk) and come right back in with no problem. Then overstay or work with only a visitors visa etc.

                    I have no numbers but something tells me that nobody has any numbers about how many cross the boarder illegally and how many come in legally then stay longer than they are supposed to.

                    So really the whole fence thing is not important.

                    Something else I noticed.

                    Oklahoma has enacted some of, if not the, toughest laws in America dealing with illegal immigration. It went into effect last November and many, and I mean many, left the state.

                    It is now four months later and they are coming back. Why? Because some of the businesses where going down the tubes. They couldn't find workers. So the businesses either went to some other state or just limped along.

                    From what I hear, and this is just hearsay, bunches of people are just looking the other way. A new bill introduce to toughen the measures is being pretty much ignored. Clergy, doctors, teachers, businessmen, police and other respected citizens are against the laws. Some politicians have learned that while the vocal minority against illegal immigration do make much noise, they can be ignored for the most part.

                    I think that laws that do not serve the people are not going to be followed. Period.

                    So about being attacked again. Yes, we will. It will have very little to nothing to do with border security. Our world is dangerous and there are evil people in it that want to hurt us. But we cannot prevent them by attacking the honest and good people out there.

                    I say rewrite the immigration laws and make it easy and with almost no limitations for people come here to work or become citizens. Get rid of all the stupid quotas that only serve to make people break laws and confuse the system.
                    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                      I wish they had "Fly at your own risk" flight that had almost no security and you could bring a weapon on the plane. That way if anyone was to act up, they would have 60 really made people around them who are armed.
                      |TG-6th|SirNerd

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                      • #12
                        Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        Way to read what you want into his post!

                        If you'll take a moment to look more closely at FatCobras words, you'll realize that he didn't say a single word about 9/11. Also, whoever said that "border security" has to refer exclusively to the land border with Mexico? We have crappy border security on ALL of our borders. The only thing special about the border with Mexico is that the massive exploitation of that lax security by illegal immigrants makes it impossible to ignore, the way we ignore all the others. Yes, if a terrorist wanted to sneak into our country, he would have several options to choose from on how to get here. But we KNOW that one of those options is to cross the mexican border, because we KNOW that isn't even close to being secure. The other potential plans all carry at least some risk of being discovered.

                        Your typical sarcasm notwithstanding, his post referred specifically to the Mexican-American border, and to the inevitablity of future attacks. All implications in the OP were about the Mexican-American border, and attacks on America. So I'm "reading into" that exactly how? Was there another recent attack on America, indicating the inevitablity of future attacks soon, that wasn't 9/11?

                        And we KNOW that EVERYONE who's attacked the U.S. came in through normal flights in American airports. So what relevance does the Mexcian border have to legitimate "national security" concerns? Only the conceptual linking of "border security" and "national security" by the republican party.

                        It's a non sequitur, pure and simple. Any linkage of the mexcian border and terror threats is all in your head. Just because I can imagine a terrorist walking through the mexican/american wilderness for three days doesn't mean that's what they're going to do. Especially in light of the fact that they all "legally" entered the country last time.

                        Don't take my word for it, here's a handy resource (pdf link to 9/11 Commission Terrorists' Travel Report) on how the terrorists came into the U.S. before 9/11.
                        Last edited by Beatnik; 02-22-2008, 06:56 PM.
                        Beatnik

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                        • #13
                          Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                          Here's another consideration: No matter how tight we lock down our borders, it will be futile. People will still die in terrorist attacks as long as our foreign policy, practices and alliances remain what they are and have been. This does not mean I'm implying that those policies should be reversed, but I do personally feel we have painted ourselves into a corner with many of the regions of SE Asia, Muslims, OPEC, and particularly the Saudis, Israel, Iraq and Iran.

                          Back to the subject:
                          Take a look at Israel. They have a massive effort to contain and secure their borders with multiple security checkpoint crossings, constant patrols, physical structures that rival the Berlin Wall, etc. that is far beyond anything we have even proposed, let alone planned or funded. Israel also has very active and ruthless intelligence and security agencies working within their borders, yet suicide bombers are still successful.

                          Granted, Israel is in closer proximity to a lot more people that have hostile intentions, this is not an apples-to-aples comparison. It does illustrate that a nation with a very high-tech, diligent adn thorough system of containment, detection and deterrence will still be vulnerable to attack by those determined enough. And let's not forget the vast difference in border size, let alone the ability and knowledge of how to secure it.

                          Now, this kind of security does help reduce the number of casualties per incident--better a suicide bomber in a cafe than a dirty bomb in Detroit, but the fear will still be there, and fear is their greatest weapon. The fear is what makes nations over-react, do preemptive retaliation, racial/religious profiling, mass arrests, rendition, imprisonment without charges, and other failures of democracy that allow them to win new zealots to their cause. It keeps the focus on the small percentage who are willing to shed blood instead of the majority who have chosen a religion and don't feel the drive to either convert or destroy everyone on the planet. Strong words? Yes. Opinion? Not really. Islam is a pretty extreme religion in it's darkest shades--and there are, of course, about as many shades of Islam as there are Christianity.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                            Originally posted by Beatnik View Post
                            Your typical sarcasm notwithstanding, his post referred specifically to the Mexican-American border, and to the inevitablity of future attacks. All implications in the OP were about the Mexican-American border, and attacks on America. So I'm "reading into" that exactly how? Was there another recent attack on America, indicating the inevitablity of future attacks soon, that wasn't 9/11?

                            And we KNOW that EVERYONE who's attacked the U.S. came in through normal flights in American airports. So what relevance does the Mexcian border have to legitimate "national security" concerns? Only the conceptual linking of "border security" and "national security" by the republican party.

                            It's a non sequitur, pure and simple. Any linkage of the mexcian border and terror threats is all in your head. Just because I can imagine a terrorist walking through the mexican/american wilderness for three days doesn't mean that's what they're going to do. Especially in light of the fact that they all "legally" entered the country last time.
                            You know, on 9/10 we knew that all hijackers had every intention of landing their planes at some point, as we had had many planes hijacked in the past but not a single hijacker had ever tried to use his new plane as a missile.

                            You seriously underestimate the intelligence of our enemy if you think they will never use an easily available attack route just because they haven't used it in the past. Even better, while there haven't yet been any sucessful attacks made over our land borders, there was at least one attack that was stopped at a border crossing before it could be completed.

                            That attack came over the equally insecure Canadian border ... but if you actually try to suggest that just because they've tried to attack through Canada therefore we shouldn't ever worry about attacks through Mexico, I'm just going to laugh at you. No further response will be necessary.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Knowing our own fate but doing nothing about it?

                              If people can smuggle drugs into our prisons, they can smuggle terrorists across our borders. End of story.

                              Short blog post:

                              http://www.reason.com/blog/show/120673.html
                              A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                              "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

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