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  • Government Monitoring

    A link the Dvorak blog post.

    It is basically a rant (that I approved of) against the increased monitoring of the American people by it's own government.

    Just one more reason we need lots of guns.

    (And I am sure this has been intercepted by the US government. I have one thing to say to you stupid liberty hating losers. Bugger off! Now give me my tin hat back.)
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

  • #2
    Re: Government Monitoring

    Eh, I don't mind so much. I will raise hell if they try to use whatever info they gather from me on some bogus charge, but I don't do anything wrong so I have nothing to hide. I will willingly give up a little privacy for increased security.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Government Monitoring

      Originally posted by Elwenil View Post
      I don't do anything wrong so I have nothing to hide.
      Famous last words.
      I will willingly give up a little privacy for increased security.
      Then you get neither.
      In game handle: Steel Scion
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Government Monitoring

        Originally posted by Elwenil View Post
        Eh, I don't mind so much. I will raise hell if they try to use whatever info they gather from me on some bogus charge, but I don't do anything wrong so I have nothing to hide. I will willingly give up a little privacy for increased security.
        Good thing you where not a founding father. We would still be British subjects. No offense to the Britons among us.
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Government Monitoring

          Did anyone notice how the man quoted as being "refreshingly open about the surge of post-Sept 11 surveillance" cites two examples of success from the 1990's? The Abu Mezer case was a man acting alone, whose plans were disclosed to authorities by a roomate. The Ressam case involved a nervous, sweating man speaking poor english being flagged by a border patrol agent. No surveillance or related technologies stopped these men.

          It should also be mentioned that there is ample evidence that the attacks on Sept. 11 would have likely been prevented had the CIA shared vital information on two of the hijackers, Khaled Al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hamzi, with the FBI. The CIA knew that these men were Al-Qaeda operatives, knew that they exchanged funds at an Al-Qaeda meeting in Malaysia prior to the bombing of the USS Cole, knew that al-Hamzi had flown to Los Angeles with Al-Midhar in early 2000, and even knew precisely where these men were living in San Diego. The FBI had been heavily investigating Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda after the Cole bombing, and were expecting an attack on US soil based on Bin Laden's statements and the fact that the Cole bombing failed to illicit the response he expected from the US. The CIA was purposefully uncooperative, and as it turns out, held the missing pieces to the FBI's puzzle all along. All of this information and more was gathered in a pre 9-11 world, through legal wiretaps and civil interrogations.

          The best explanation I have read on this failure is that the CIA had hoped to recruit one or both of the men as operatives, as they obviously had none within Al-Qaeda and this was an embarrasing fact given that just about any Muslim man with two functioning hands was allowed to train in their Afghanistan camps. The CIA knew that upon sharing any of this information with the FBI would result in an investigation that could disrupt their recruitment efforts. Of course they were correct - however the resulting FBI investigation of these men would have significantly disrupted or even derailed the 9-11 plot.

          There is no amount of technology, scanning, eavesdropping, or TSA shoe removal requirement that is going to even going to approach the overwhelming importance of real investigative intelligence. We can only hope that the US intelligence community has learned this lesson now.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Government Monitoring

            Originally posted by Steeler View Post
            Famous last words.

            Then you get neither.
            Your opinion.

            Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
            Good thing you where not a founding father. We would still be British subjects. No offense to the Britons among us.
            No, I don't think you are getting my point. Understand that I do not agree with a Cold War era Soviet Union style intelligence service that intrudes in on everything and makes people live in fear, but I do feel that our Government has a right to protect itself and gather intel related to that so long as they do not overstep their bounds. A completely open society is chaos and we need laws to keep people in check as well as intelligence to keep us from being swarmed under by attackers in our midst. Remember that the 9/11 attackers were based in the US for quite a while and trained to fly here. If we had known more about what they were up to, we could have prevented the attack. Your neighbor could be a law abiding citizen, or he could be plotting to kill many innocent civilians for reasons unknown.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Government Monitoring

              Originally posted by Elwenil View Post
              Remember that the 9/11 attackers were based in the US for quite a while and trained to fly here. If we had known more about what they were up to, we could have prevented the attack. Your neighbor could be a law abiding citizen, or he could be plotting to kill many innocent civilians for reasons unknown.
              Did you even read AMosely's post?
              In game handle: Steel Scion
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Government Monitoring

                Your neighbor could be a law abiding citizen, or he could be plotting to kill many innocent civilians for reasons unknown.
                Or he could be a nazi or a communist. Better have everyone spying on each other along with the government so we can finally be safe from each other. Thank god the TIPS program got shot down so badly in the year following 9\11.

                I don't do anything wrong so I have nothing to hide.
                This hints that you are fearful and accepting of the fed governments authority over you along with our intelligence services spying. Better security for a real problem like terrorism must also go hand in hand with checks and balances to prevent abuse against our civil liberties, which are the cornerstone of our way of life. You always need to keep a healthy skepticism of the governments actions to maintain your own liberty.

                A completely open society is chaos and we need laws to keep people in check as well as intelligence to keep us from being swarmed under by attackers in our midst.
                General laws for governance, and overbearing intelligence gathering techniques\monitoring are two different things. The last thing we want to become is a surveillance society much like it seems Britain is turning into.
                Last edited by aeroripper; 03-24-2008, 04:38 PM.
                Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Government Monitoring

                  Originally posted by Steeler View Post
                  Did you even read AMosely's post?
                  No, I was replying to your post, not his. Mosley has very valid points and there were things that can be done better but I don't think limiting our intelligence gathering abilities is a step in the right direction. Exactly the opposite, in fact.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Government Monitoring

                    I absolutely love the tendency for you people to disagree with someone's opinion and automatically post that they are wrong. I don't have time for this back and forth arguing. If you guys could carry on a decent conversation a discuss things it would be difference but implying that I am fearful of a goddamn thing is ridiculous.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Government Monitoring

                      Originally posted by Elwenil View Post
                      No, I was replying to your post, not his. Mosley has very valid points and there were things that can be done better but I don't think limiting our intelligence gathering abilities is a step in the right direction. Exactly the opposite, in fact.
                      That explains a lot.

                      For the record, I suggest you do some research about a technique called remote viewing, pioneered by the soviet union and the CIA/NSA/ARMY during the 60s up until the 80s. If they really wanted to know who did what where and when, even before it happened, they easily could and DO. They don't need to tap your phone, archive your email and search habits, and read your mail without warrants to keep tabs on you. Just like they don't need to find Osama Bin Laden. Theres a reason they haven't found him, bud. They know where he is, they know he had nothing to do with 9/11 other than being a mascot for "terrorism" that they made him out to be. The big bad mastermind who lives in the caves of afghanistan, pakistan, and the streets of iran! Insanity if I've ever heard it. When people who hold your opinion wake up and realize that the nazis really won world war 2, and you're living in their motherland, you may die of shock.

                      To explain this to you simply: our "government" murders mass amounts of their own citizens and says we need more security to prevent this from happening again. They write some new laws and give a few people some very broad reaching unconstitutional powers and create thousands of new jobs that need billions of more taxpayer funds to pay for. Meanwhile a few puppets called presidents are rotated in and out of office starting wars, to make a few corporations rich while siphoning more tax dollars into black projects don't officially exist, and simultaneously reducing large portions of the world population. They dumb you down through your water, they weaken your immune system through the air. They program you through your TV. They manipulate mass consciousness through the use of scalar/ELF weapons.

                      They made AIDS, SARS, "BIRD FLU" and MRSA and other bio-engineered antibiotic resistant pathogens that you will be victims of in the coming years. They engineer hurricanes and weather in general. They hit New Orleans, folks. Since when do hurricanes travel in straight lines?

                      Wake up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Government Monitoring

                        Originally posted by Elwenil View Post
                        I absolutely love the tendency for you people to disagree with someone's opinion and automatically post that they are wrong. I don't have time for this back and forth arguing. If you guys could carry on a decent conversation a discuss things it would be difference but implying that I am fearful of a goddamn thing is ridiculous.
                        If you disagree with somebody, aren't you basically saying they are wrong? I mean saying "You are right, but I disagree" just doesn't sound right.

                        And as far as fear goes... you are the one that said you would give up a little liberty for security, not I. So obviously you are fearful of something, otherwise why all the security desires? Especially given that you offer your liberty in exchange? That is a pretty hefty price to pay for something. Is it not?
                        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Government Monitoring

                          No, you guys simply read whatever you want out of a person's posts and not what they mean. I refuse to participate in this in the future.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Government Monitoring

                            Yeahhhhhh, just...

                            You guys are reading so far into Elwenil's post it's a bit ridiculous. He never said he was afraid of ZOMG SOVIET INVASIONS or whatnot. He merely said he would give up some freedoms for added security.

                            It's a moderate statement. Not right wing, not left wing...

                            Pretty centrist.

                            I share his feelings on the matter - I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't take great offense to being wiretapped. Is it an invasion of privacy? I guess. Do I really care? No.
                            Skud


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Government Monitoring

                              Originally posted by TheSkudDestroyer View Post
                              Yeahhhhhh, just...

                              You guys are reading so far into Elwenil's post it's a bit ridiculous. He never said he was afraid of ZOMG SOVIET INVASIONS or whatnot. He merely said he would give up some freedoms for added security.

                              It's a moderate statement. Not right wing, not left wing...

                              Pretty centrist.

                              I share his feelings on the matter - I have nothing to hide. I wouldn't take great offense to being wiretapped. Is it an invasion of privacy? I guess. Do I really care? No.
                              I don't think giving up liberty for security is centrist at all. I find it a very disturbing and simply wrong. The idea that that this sentiment is centrist is even more frighting.

                              The founding fathers also found it to be wrong, wrong enough to go to war.

                              After all, they where MUCH safer under British rule then they where on their own and the British government asked very little for this protection. But it was wrong. See?
                              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                              Comment

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