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Oops! The "ignorant Irish masses" voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

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  • Oops! The "ignorant Irish masses" voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

    I guess the EU only likes "democracy" when it gives them the results they want:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4128055.ece

    Way to go Ireland. :)
    Last edited by Rincewind; 06-13-2008, 11:09 AM.
    ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
    No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

    <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.


  • #2
    Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

    A big FU to the EU. Go Ireland!
    "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

      Originally posted by Rincewind View Post
      I guess the EU only likes "democracy" when it gives them the results they want
      Same holds true for the US:

      http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=67143999

      As soon as the democratically elected Hamas party was ejected from the Palestinian government last year, the US and EU quickly lifted their sanctions. Their claims of support for democracy openly contradict their policies of sanctioning countries whom they view as any kind of violent or economic threat, it happens over and over again. Noam Chomsky has tracked these contradictions better than anyone I know of, most recently in What We Say Goes. Chomsky has made a clear case that any US claims of support for democracy and disdain for 'dictators and tyrants' are disputed by the historical record on a regular basis. As in the Palestinian case, the US ignores democracy if it doesn't serve US interests. In the case of Saddam Hussein, the US plainly backed this dictator up until 1990. As soon as Saddam fell out of step with US interests, he was a tyrant.

      These are simple facts in modern government. While their reasons for being (a government supporting its own interests) are easily understandable, it should be equally understandable that any claims by leadership of 'fighting for democracy' are untrue. The US fights for itself and its interests, and does so in some very clandestinely harsh ways (I have made the case before that US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs very much gave rise to modern Islamic terrorism). To say otherwise - that it fights for democracy or freedom - simply doesn't match up against the factual record.

      Again, if you're looking for why a particular country, culture or fanatical group (Al Qaeda) hates the US, it's not because of freedom or democracy. It's because the US goes to great length to steamroll, overthrow or undercut any government or leader (and subsequently the population it represents) that doesn't work towards their interests. This policy has been in effect ever since the US established itself as a global superpower following World War II. Judge that as you like, but it is the truth.
      Last edited by Mosely; 06-13-2008, 01:00 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

        Does the EU need Ireland?

        I know this specific treaty does. But couldn't the EU form/go on without them?

        I don't understand the EU politics.

        Ireland without the EU would not do all that well, would it?
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

          Those are my peeps and im damn proud of them for voting NO.

          I deserve a ribbon for Mortar Specialist

          Artillery conquers and infantry occupies.
          J.F.C. Fuller

          Proud to have been a member of the 5th, 71st and my beloved 19th

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

            There's news stories about Ireland voting "NO" all over the place, but it took me awhile to find one that actually describes what the Treaty of Lisbon would have done: Explanation for your enjoyment.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

              I read that article and just don't see what Ireland is celebrating. That they will keep the old process? Is there something wonderful about the current decisions making process in the EU council that benefits Ireland?

              Or are they just happy that they, a rather small and not real important country, was able to irritate the larger countries of EU?
              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                Originally posted by AMosely View Post
                Same holds true for the US:

                http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=67143999

                As soon as the democratically elected Hamas party was ejected from the Palestinian government last year, the US and EU quickly lifted their sanctions. Their claims of support for democracy openly contradict their policies of sanctioning countries whom they view as any kind of violent or economic threat, it happens over and over again. Noam Chomsky has tracked these contradictions better than anyone I know of, most recently in What We Say Goes. Chomsky has made a clear case that any US claims of support for democracy and disdain for 'dictators and tyrants' are disputed by the historical record on a regular basis. As in the Palestinian case, the US ignores democracy if it doesn't serve US interests. In the case of Saddam Hussein, the US plainly backed this dictator up until 1990. As soon as Saddam fell out of step with US interests, he was a tyrant.

                These are simple facts in modern government. While their reasons for being (a government supporting its own interests) are easily understandable, it should be equally understandable that any claims by leadership of 'fighting for democracy' are untrue. The US fights for itself and its interests, and does so in some very clandestinely harsh ways (I have made the case before that US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs very much gave rise to modern Islamic terrorism). To say otherwise - that it fights for democracy or freedom - simply doesn't match up against the factual record.

                Again, if you're looking for why a particular country, culture or fanatical group (Al Qaeda) hates the US, it's not because of freedom or democracy. It's because the US goes to great length to steamroll, overthrow or undercut any government or leader (and subsequently the population it represents) that doesn't work towards their interests. This policy has been in effect ever since the US established itself as a global superpower following World War II. Judge that as you like, but it is the truth.
                I fully support peoples' right to elect Al Qaeda to lead their government if that's what they believe is in their best interests, but I don't think it's a contradiction for me to never send them another dime again if they make that choice. Hell it might even get them carpet bombed. How does it follow that I'm not supporting democracy? I suppose it would be better if we stopped giving "Palestine" money at all, ever, and for any reason. That way at least nobody would call us hypocritical, and lord knows the good people of the middle east apparently have enough money to spend on everything else under the sun.

                See I saw the same line you did and I had the same thought you did - that many in the US also seems to support democracy only when it gives the result they want - but I was thinking of the last two Presidential elections, in which a number of racist, ignorant, bible thumpers apparently made the wrong decision - twice - much to the consternation of many intelligent, wise, and more visionary people who didn't care for the election results.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                  Im from northen ireland, so we didnt vote, we vote with the UK, but i was mighty relieved to hear they rejected it.

                  In britain, we are not being given the chance to vote, the Prime Minister is flat out refusing to allow it, even though the masses and the opposition party are screaming for it. In short, the catches are its seperates europe into new zones, so ireland is in a zone with portugal and spain, scotland is with the scandinavian countries, and england with france, etc. We lose power over policing, foreign policy, defence, and i think its handing FAR to much over far to easily.

                  In fairess, this is a very simplified view of it, and perhaps more liberal Pro EU people will have a very different spin on this, but all i can say is, for once, the republic of ireland done us a favour, and keep it up until they scrap this nightmare that is a united states of europe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                    IRA4EVR

                    :p

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                      I found a graph that breaks down the vote:



                      Basically, 30% of the Irish who voted No voted no because they didn't understand what they were voting for. Kudos to them...
                      ~~ Veritas simplex oratio est ~~
                      No matter how far a wizard goes, he will always come back for his hat. --T. Pratchett

                      <---- You know you're getting old when you rely on your forum meta-data to remind you how old you are.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                        Originally posted by HairyNevus View Post
                        IRA4EVR

                        :p
                        Keep it clean,

                        And what do you mean by small and unimportant country? Irelands changed the face of the earth by itself multiple times,
                        "A Veteran is someone who , at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to
                        'The United states of America' for an amount of 'upto and including my life'. That is honor, and there are way to many people in this country who no longer understand it."-Author Unknown

                        "I got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section" -Any.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                          Originally posted by HairyNevus
                          IRA4EVR
                          Not funny. Ever if that was meant as a joke, that is not funy, the IRA has destroyed thousands of peoples lives, do not joke. Thats like me sayn Al Qaeda rock. Grow the hell up.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                            Thats not anywhere near saying Al Qaeda rocks,

                            And it kind of sounds like your saying that the british policing forces havent devestated lives...
                            "A Veteran is someone who , at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to
                            'The United states of America' for an amount of 'upto and including my life'. That is honor, and there are way to many people in this country who no longer understand it."-Author Unknown

                            "I got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section" -Any.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Oops! The &quot;ignorant Irish masses&quot; voted No on the Lisbon Treaty

                              Fenian, do you understand what the IRA is? Do you understand how offensive it would be to someone who lives where they have carried out terrorist attacks to say what was said?

                              Something tells me that you dont. Jeepo LIVES there. He's SEEN it. I think he's absolutely right in his assessment.

                              Comment

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