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  • Logical Thinking ftw...

    [media]http://agradevaduta.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/atheism11.gif[/media]

    Being atheist, I can't help but love this. :row__642:
    Even if you do believe in a higher power, you must see the humour in this.
    sigpic

  • #2
    Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

    http://einsteinandreligion.com/

    Agree with just about everything he has to say,
    "A Veteran is someone who , at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to
    'The United states of America' for an amount of 'upto and including my life'. That is honor, and there are way to many people in this country who no longer understand it."-Author Unknown

    "I got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section" -Any.

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    • #3
      Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

      Yeah I see the humour in this.

      Now I hope you don't mind, I'm not trying to spoil anyone's fun nor am I offended by the cartoon but I'd just like to make a couple quick points. I understand that the cartoon is a joke but some people may take it slightly more seriously so just in case I'd like to mention a couple things about it.

      I'm not trying to spoil your fun.

      Number one: "Faith" is not "belief in things that aren't based in fact" nor is it is Richard Dawkins definition; "faith is belief in the absence of evidence" (paraphrase). Generally the faith that Christians talk about is a trust and confidence in God. Additionally many Christians would strongly argue that they have perfectly reasonable arguments for faith in God.

      Number two: Atheism isn't necessarily a lack of belief in a higher power. It means "without God". So just because God doesn't think there is any power greater than him he still believes that God exists so isn't an atheist.

      I hope I haven't sapped any joy from your life but that cartoon is exactly the type of thing I hear people repeat and they think it's a valid argument.

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      • #4
        Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

        Generally the faith that Christians talk about is a trust and confidence in God. Additionally many Christians would strongly argue that they have perfectly reasonable arguments for faith in God.
        Isn't that faith in faith? We have faith that God exists, and then faith that He is right. You seem to be covering the second part, but the definitions you cite apply to the first part.
        Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

        snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

        Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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        • #5
          Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

          I love this guy's take on the existence of god:

          http://www.jhuger.com/mystic_atheism

          This guy's an atheist because god told him so.
          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

            Obi, all viewpoints are appreciated.

            As long as insults aren't thrown about, I think this will be a nice civilized discussion.

            BY THE WAY, I'm invoking Godwin's Law ahead of time, just in case.
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            • #7
              Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

              Originally posted by Obi View Post
              Number two: Atheism isn't necessarily a lack of belief in a higher power. It means "without God". So just because God doesn't think there is any power greater than him he still believes that God exists so isn't an atheist.
              To an atheist, when one refers to a god, we don't think of the Christian-Judeo god, we think of a higher power. It does not mean "without God", it means "lack of believe a [weak atheism], or the belief there is no [strong atheism], god(s)".

              View it like this.

              Do you believe in Zeus? Poseiden? Shiva? Proabably not. :D
              The mindset you have for those gods, is the same atheists have for all gods/deitys.
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              • #8
                Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                Originally posted by brain21 View Post
                To an atheist, when one refers to a god, we don't think of the Christian-Judeo god, we think of a higher power. It does not mean "without God", it means "lack of believe a [weak atheism], or the belief there is no [strong atheism], god(s)".

                View it like this.

                Do you believe in Zeus? Poseiden? Shiva? Proabably not. :D
                The mindset you have for those gods, is the same atheists have for all gods/deitys.
                Actually, we non-atheists probably view them in a fundamentally different way than you, even considering the gods that we do not worship. From what I've seen, the underlying base of the atheist view towards any of these gods is, "Yeah, You just try and make me sign over my autonomy to some higher power." From a Christian point of view, the basic response to a Zeus/Shiva/etc is, "Those figures do not deserve credit for the workings of My God in this world, and will not be honored with any of my worship."

                Its a completely different base approach, so you can't really explain away your view on our God by comparing it to our view on other gods. Translating our view on other gods to our own God wouldn't even properly make sense.

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                • #9
                  Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                  To answer the cartoon's question: science - specifically cosmology.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                    Never quite thought of that, Kero. It's a good point.

                    And Mose....what? Could you elaborate?
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                    • #11
                      Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                      Originally posted by brain21 View Post
                      And Mose....what? Could you elaborate?
                      I can.

                      Human myth and religion have traditionally held that a god or universal creator was responsible for the creation of the heavens and the Earth. Science has slowly but steadily ebbed away at much of what used to be regarded as reality by religious belief. Cosmology, a field of study that has only recently begun to gain momentum, is in the process of mapping and even simulating the heavens in an effort to discover the actual origins of the 'big bang,' or in more specific terms the actual conditions or nature of our universe's point of singularity. In many ways, scientific discovery is providing detailed explanations for the questions and conditions that religion was created to answer about human origins and the world and universe they inhabit. This process has been amplified by the onset of telecommunications and global information exchange - changes that have proven unstoppable even by the most powerfully controlling of governments.

                      For the last several hundred years, science has been biting at the heels of religious and mythical belief. Not only is science winning these battles, but it is winning with increased frequency. We know this because scientific theories, such as gravity and electromagnetism, once viewed as heresy are taken as simple fact today by modern society. The number and frequency of discoveries is rising exponentially, and the rate or speed at which they are disseminated, tested and processed by the human race is also rising exponentially (telecommunications and information exchange). It is all but guaranteed that within the first half of this 21st century, humankind will have not only mapped but reprogrammed significant parts of the human genetic code, make significant wide-scale developments in sustainable energy, and not only map but understand the creation and behavior of the universe itself. If we do not exterminate ourselves or our planet in the process, this century will bring amazing change to the human race. Religion and cultural inequality will act to slow this change, but will slowly devolve into an important yet nostalgic cultural artifact.

                      All of these changes are already underway, which is unfortunately a major reason why fanaticism is on the rise. Any grip on myth or laws held only by belief will fail, though, provided that the human race does not. That, frankly, is the only place where faith or belief is still needed.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                        Mosely, allow me to propose a thought experiment.

                        Suppose I go to visit a very clever tribe of indigenous natives that has never seen a TV. I bring with me a television set, remote control, and a satellite receiver. Pointing the remote at the TV, I turn it on to the latest programming and proclaim, "Look, I* have brought you television!"

                        [* - for purposes of this analogy, consider all references to "me" or "I" to include "me, and the entire support staff of other people who helped me design and build the television, launch the satellite carrying the signal, and film the TV shows now appearing on the television."]

                        Now, this being an exceedingly clever tribe, after admiring the TV programming for awhile they decide to figure out how it works. They examine it and take it apart and put it together again, and they eventually figure out how cathode tubes produce light under electrical power, and how the receiver interprets the satellite signal to send the right power to those tubes, and how the remote sends the IR signal to tell the TV to change channels.

                        Knowing all this, one of the natives complains to me, "You did not bring us television. Television is the natural product of the laws of physics acting upon the phosphoresence contained in these tubes. Any other similar set of tubes would have done the same thing, without you standing there at all. All you did was watch!"

                        Is the native right? Have I actually created television? Or has the relentless progress of science ebbed away at what used to be regarded as reality?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                          Is the native right? Have I actually created television? Or has the relentless progress of science ebbed away at what used to be regarded as reality?
                          He's wrong. You (and your company collective) did design the physical entity that is the television, its components, and then demonstrated it to them. You can prove that because you work for the company whose name is on the serial numbers of the components. If he's referring to the laws of physics that permit such a design to work in the first place, he needs to rephrase his assertion. If he's referring to the images of the world on the screen, he's wrong there too. You didn't come to them claiming you created the universe AND the television within it. You only said you created a television.

                          A better extension to the metaphor would be many generations in the future, when the tribe still had this mysterious box that a man (a creator) claimed to have created. At that point, 'scientists' in the tribe discover a whole world of televisions and a world around those televisions with other companies, some simultaneous and some other. A world of televisions and other things not created by the man who came to them with the television.

                          I do see your point, though, and I should point out that I do not believe religion or religious belief has some kind of finite end. I just happen to think that it is in the process of being converted to something other than what humanity has held it as for so many thousands of years. It comes down to proof, and religion is losing the battle of proof, at least in my view.

                          I think a more easy refute of any belief in a loving or all-seeing god is that if there was any being or entity with any control over mankind whatsoever, they would not allow such atrocities to be carried out on this Earth every single minute of the day - most certainly not those carried out in their name. The fact that we can all now observe this on a daily basis only goes adds merit to this assertion - in my opinion of course.
                          Last edited by Mosely; 06-16-2008, 06:28 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                            Originally posted by AMosely View Post
                            ...and not only map but understand the creation and behavior of the universe itself.
                            They already have mapped it, a little better than roughly. :icon20:

                            Google WMAP and microwave background radiation.









                            Plus, I live how a comic can help spark well thought out debate.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Re: Logical Thinking ftw...

                              I was thinking about Kerostasis' television metaphor, which is a good one for this purpose. The concept of the 'bigger picture' is what I'm talking about here.

                              The certain members of the tribe questioning the 'creator' are easily compared to the scientific community and its followers/believers of today - they are beginning to see the bigger picture - that while it may be believable that the creator (the TV man) did 'create' the television and all of its components (which, for the purpose of the metaphor is mostly true), it is not believable that the creator (the TV man) created the mechanical properties, elements and greater environment that the television, humans, or anything else for that matter operates in.

                              The tribe begins to see the bigger picture, and they begin to correctly doubt the claim that the 'TV man' actually created anything but the television.

                              My argument is that humankind is rapidly developing the 'bigger picture,' and the bigger picture is overshadowing the mythical explanations of beliefs which previously defined it.

                              Another thought I had is that my arguments only tend to focus on the natural and physical environment - time and space, the components of the cosmos. Through recent discovery, it is becoming quite easy to see that there are no gods in the sky, or even in the solar system, that the stars aren't gods, and that hell isn't beneath the earth - all religious beliefs that are simply myth. It is not as easy to dispute or define the intangibles that religious belief presents - morality, conscience, humility, peace. These are areas that even the social and medical sciences cannot fully address, and can only be resolved through organized society, government and law. Some would also say they can only be resolved through religious belief. I do not see these areas making as much obvious progress as the physical ones. In my view these aspects - the intangibles and social factors - are those which will cause religion to persist among humankind for some time to come.

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