Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Amazing Aircraft

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Amazing Aircraft

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sn5JL9t_C4[/media]

    and

    http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/potty/17.htm

    You go through life and you hear stories about wonder cars getting 200mpg that get squashed by oil interests and other crazy stories and you, rightfully, conclude that those remarks are just silly.

    Then you come across something like the Channelwing aircraft and start wondering if those conspiracy theories are really that silly.

    But anyway it is an interesting aircraft.
    I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

  • #2
    Re: Amazing Aircraft

    Intriguing read, never heard of this concept before. I did a google search and found a site that explains the reasoning behind this plane not being adopted:

    http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-2387

    Also there looks to be some similarities between the channelwing design and the A10(with excellent lift at low speeds) podded engines.
    --
    VI VI VI - the number of the beast

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Amazing Aircraft

      Probably a similar saga to the Tucker automobile. If any of you don't know what the Tucker is, go rent the movie, "Tucker." It's really good. A great car that had several automotive revolutions, yet the bigger automakers squashed like a bug, then stole it's ideas. I'm not much of a conspiracy person, but I do think that sometimes competing corporations can diminish progress.
      "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Amazing Aircraft

        *reads linked articles*

        The primary advantage of the Channelwing design seems to be performance at very low speeds. However, there are very few applications that actually require planes to operate at very low speeds, and most of those can be adequately filled by helicopters. A fixed wing plane is built for the purpose of operating reliably at high speeds, and there the Channelwing is inferior to standard designs.

        So its not really fair to compare Channelwings to standard airplanes. They should really be compared to Helicopters instead. And while I'm not entirely sure how that comparison would stack up, Helicopters have proven to be really good at such tasks as hovering and moving sideways / backwards, which Channelwings seem rather inferior at accomplishing. Moving forward very slowly isnt quite the same as being able to fly backwards.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Amazing Aircraft

          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
          *reads linked articles*

          The primary advantage of the Channelwing design seems to be performance at very low speeds. However, there are very few applications that actually require planes to operate at very low speeds, and most of those can be adequately filled by helicopters. A fixed wing plane is built for the purpose of operating reliably at high speeds, and there the Channelwing is inferior to standard designs.

          So its not really fair to compare Channelwings to standard airplanes. They should really be compared to Helicopters instead. And while I'm not entirely sure how that comparison would stack up, Helicopters have proven to be really good at such tasks as hovering and moving sideways / backwards, which Channelwings seem rather inferior at accomplishing. Moving forward very slowly isnt quite the same as being able to fly backwards.
          I was thinking more along the lines of good, solid ideas and knowledge out in the world that could be used to help make it a better place to live. But the ideas are not fully exploited. I don't think this idea has been fully exploited. I think variations of this idea could make landing and take off safer.

          I really hope that these new fangled information pipes will help solve this situation where knowledge and ideas are exploited to their fullest potential.
          I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Amazing Aircraft

            That requires the assumption that some evil corporate entity squashed adoption of the channelwing design to prevent competition, but that's not the scenario described by the research at all. In practice, he pitched his design to several corporate entities, and no one though it was worth the effort to build. If a product loses money, then it loses money. Sorry. No conspiracy required.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Amazing Aircraft

              Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
              That requires the assumption that some evil corporate entity squashed adoption of the channelwing design to prevent competition, but that's not the scenario described by the research at all. In practice, he pitched his design to several corporate entities, and no one though it was worth the effort to build. If a product loses money, then it loses money. Sorry. No conspiracy required.
              Not an evil corporation. Maybe a lazy one. Or one that is making lots of cash and sees no reason to change. Or a risk adverse one.

              There is a very powerful motivation in many medium to large corporations to limit change (which is often seen as risk). Some of that motivation comes from the customers themselves.

              In the case of this venturi type lift I am sure some engineers at the traditional aircraft companies could, or maybe even have, figured out how to use it to achieve very nice things like safer take offs and landings. But is the company going to risk billions on developing the idea? And if this idea means you end up with a odd looking plane there is even less motivation because it may very well turn off potential customers.

              I am not saying that there is concerted effort by evil CEO's out to keep the populace hooked on their cheap wares. I am saying that humans and their organizatinos are often not able to take advantage of ideas because those same humans and organizations, even if benevolent, are often blinded by their own success.

              We don't learn from success, we learn from failure.
              I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
              - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
              - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
              - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
              - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
              - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
              - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Amazing Aircraft

                So what applications benefit from slow flight? Crop dusting, perhaps?
                Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Amazing Aircraft

                  Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                  So what applications benefit from slow flight? Crop dusting, perhaps?
                  I was thinking more along the lines of safer takeoff and landings. If you can land at 50 mph rather than 200 mph then an accident won't be as tragic.

                  Maybe safety overall could be increased?

                  More routes possibly. Don't need a huge airstrip to land or take off.

                  Maybe this technology could be put to use in the cool new high speed trains!
                  I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Amazing Aircraft

                    The short airstrip would make short hop air travel more practical. A commuter airline to every little town?

                    Air travel is already safe. Raising the price for a miniscule increase in safety is just going to drive more people to cars. (I'll already choose a car over a plane for anything short of a multi-state flight, due to the inconvenience of the "added safety" of security measures. Safety isn't free.)
                    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Amazing Aircraft

                      Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                      The short airstrip would make short hop air travel more practical. A commuter airline to every little town?

                      Air travel is already safe. Raising the price for a miniscule increase in safety is just going to drive more people to cars. (I'll already choose a car over a plane for anything short of a multi-state flight, due to the inconvenience of the "added safety" of security measures. Safety isn't free.)
                      We don't know it would cost more. It would cost to change now. But all things being equal it could cost more or the same and maybe even less.

                      If it cost the same or less (or maybe even slightly more) landings and take offs could probably be done more efficiently (shorter runways = more runways among other things). The efficiency gains could possibly make up for a slight increase in manufacturing.

                      And this is just one example. I think there are thousands of ideas out there that are not taken advantage of. I am not blaming anybody, just saying it I find the situation kinda sad.
                      I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Amazing Aircraft

                        The abstract from PanzerHans' link:

                        In a recent publication NASA has declared the channel wing, usually referred to as the Custer channel wing after its inventor, to be an aerodynamic flow control approach with potential for expanding the performance envelope of aeronautical vehicles. This means there have been on the order of seventy years for the concept's advocates to show that it deserves such an endorsement, and while theory, model tests and visionary airplanes incorporating it have created great enthusiasm, the performance of airplanes actually using the approach has been uniformly and severely disappointing. The reasons are many and include unconstrained optimism over a novel application of an old theory, incorporating the channel wing into conveniently available existing airplanes without adequately analyzing if those configuration could cope with the demands of the resulting unusual flight conditions, ignoring that the semi-circular beam wing configuration incurs increased profile drag and weight penalties over a conventional wing of the same lifting planform, and overlooking that the latter common straight wing could provide almost the equivalent lift enhancement when exposed to the same slipstream induced increased dynamic pressure. This last is demonstrated by theory and scale model tests, and while the relative simplicity of this approach is attractive - and without the above penalties associated with the channel wing - it is subject to the same concerns about control under conditions of low speed and large power effects. One channel wing airplane flight tested, to be offered in the general aviation market, was found incapable of meeting certification requirements and, while having a slight advantage in takeoff and landing performance, suffered overwhelmingly in climb and high speed capability compared to already certificated, traditionally designed twin engine airplanes available in the field. One airplane company evaluating this channel wing model summarized the situation well for all: the small advantage in field length performance achieved did not offset the concept's many deficiencies in flight and in cost.
                        Sounds like the plane has safety issues at those low speeds (like poor climb power under adverse conditions) and so would be undesirable for purposes of achieving greater safety.

                        More runways would be nice, but how many airports have their runways set up end-to-end? I guess if they were short enough you could batch up a bunch of them side by side.

                        What are the noise characteristics of the channel wing? That's another issue that seems to affect urban airports a lot. Here in SF the airlines have to take much riskier approach paths to avoid the high density housing that's crowded in around the airports. (I would prefer to see the airport moved 50 miles out of the city, which could also ease parking and traffic congestion, but then the idiots would just move their developments up against the new location.)
                        Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                        snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                        Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Amazing Aircraft

                          Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                          The abstract from PanzerHans' link:



                          Sounds like the plane has safety issues at those low speeds (like poor climb power under adverse conditions) and so would be undesirable for purposes of achieving greater safety.

                          More runways would be nice, but how many airports have their runways set up end-to-end? I guess if they were short enough you could batch up a bunch of them side by side.

                          What are the noise characteristics of the channel wing? That's another issue that seems to affect urban airports a lot. Here in SF the airlines have to take much riskier approach paths to avoid the high density housing that's crowded in around the airports. (I would prefer to see the airport moved 50 miles out of the city, which could also ease parking and traffic congestion, but then the idiots would just move their developments up against the new location.)
                          I don't doubt that there are safety issues with the designs of the channel wing available today. There where serious safety issues with the DC10 and other aircraft models. Most aircraft, when first designed, have serious safety issues. Over time they are solved.

                          Maybe those issues with the channel wing cannot be overcome. I seriously doubt it. Given the energy and mind share it would, I bet, work almost flawlessly. Much like current airliners.

                          Or maybe we don't do a full on channel wing. Instead we do semi-channel wings.

                          I think many, many opportunities are lost due to the way new and different discoveries are embraced.

                          In software it seems to go one of two ways. Either a new idea is hailed as the second coming of Christ and all problems are solved by it. Or it is viewed as another crackpot scheme that only a young foolish green developer would even think about using.

                          Take Ruby on Rails as an example. Many are simply fanatic about it. But know what? I had a system way back in VB5 days that did much of what RoR does. Many developers did. Most of them where VB or FoxPro developers and their solutions where looked down upon because they wher VB and FoxPro developers. They where not as refined, to be sure. But they did the basics and could have been developed to RoR equals of the day.

                          Or look at AJAX apps. When I first saw them something seemed familiar about them. Then I remembered an old app that I made back in the day. It used something called XMLHttpRequest object (I think that is what it was called) and an IFrame*. I also use the XMLHttpRequest object in a VB5 windows forms app. I thought it was completely cool that I could make a request to the sever over http and get a ADO dataset back as xml then parse it back to a dataset. And in a browser I could do it and the page wouldn't flash. I brought this up in a forum someplace and the the guys there told me I was either stupid, crazy or both. I believed them (this was early in my career) and only used the XMLHttpRequest in windows forms to synchronize data.

                          It really took Google and its maps app to make AJAX acceptable to all the cool developers.

                          Now in software I think it is much easier to get a new or different idea out into the wild and experimented with by others. To get it fleshed out. Often the idea itself does not make it but elements of it does.

                          I can only imagine that in the solid world how many times an idea equivalent to AJAX has simply disappeared into history.

                          *I didn't realize it at the time but the Outlook Web interface used this same technology. That thing was, and still is, the single best web application I have ever seen. At the time I didn't believe what I saw. I thought they had used some secret Microsoft magic and hidden ActiveX controls.
                          I知 not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Amazing Aircraft

                            I love your last posting Gringo :). I agree on all the the programming stuff :).

                            Interesting thought that perhaps engineers in other disciplines than software might be "stuck" in their old ways. I do believe software engineers are very open to radical change now. Not so much 10 years ago. Might be because we could be on the brink of a paradigm shift....
                            --
                            VI VI VI - the number of the beast

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Amazing Aircraft

                              So what we need is "open source" in other fields, where any garage tinker can know what others are working on without patents in the way.
                              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X