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Italy moving back towards fascism?

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  • Italy moving back towards fascism?

    This really alarmed me and I'm kind of surprised it hasn't gotten more attention than it has. To me, it is reminiscent of Italian and German policies before World War 2. You could pretty much replace the word "gypsy" with "Jew" and we'd be in Germany in the 1930s. Very disturbing stuff.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...tory?track=rss

    Originally posted by LA Times
    ROME -- Italy's controversial decision to fingerprint Gypsies as part of what it said was a crackdown on crime received a sharp rebuke Thursday from the European Parliament, which declared the campaign distinctly racist.

    The Italian government knew it was courting criticism when it began rounding up and fingerprinting the oft-targeted minority known formally as the Roma. But the proclamation from Europe's chief elected body was an especially embarrassing blow to the 2-month-old right-wing administration of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi...

    ...After several high-profile crimes blamed on Gypsies, the new government launched a crackdown on the itinerant population, sending police to round up individuals and raze their huts and homes. Scores of Gypsies and other foreigners were expelled. Vigilantes burned some camps.
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  • #2
    Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

    Originally posted by Buckets View Post
    You could pretty much replace the word "gypsy" with "Jew" and we'd be in Germany in the 1930s.
    Absolutely ridiculous. If you know anything about modern gypsies, you know that they are a criminal subculture that is responsible for much of the crime in the world. There's just no way to compare Jews to gypsies.

    I've had to deal with a couple of gypsies here in the US, and they were some of the scummiest people I've ever talked to. Their morals are seriously warped.
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    • #3
      Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

      I don't know Cing. It seems a bit more complicated than that.

      I am sure some Gypsies are scum. But every one of them? To the point you single the group out and persecute them wholesale?

      Getting close to some kind of line I think.
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      • #4
        Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

        Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
        Absolutely ridiculous. If you know anything about modern gypsies, you know that they are a criminal subculture that is responsible for much of the crime in the world. There's just no way to compare Jews to gypsies.

        I've had to deal with a couple of gypsies here in the US, and they were some of the scummiest people I've ever talked to. Their morals are seriously warped.
        I don't see how that gives anyone the right to catalog them like property. Lots of black people commit crime, so let's just go ahead and document them too eh?

        Even street gangs selling dope and hookers on the corner don't get treated like this unless they're caught and arrested for a crime.
        [squadl]
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        • #5
          Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

          I understand that in Italy, that gypsies tend to be of a certain ethnic minority, but that ethnicity is disappearing and the subculture is certainly becoming more like a criminal organization (actually, more like a disorganization).

          Doing this to someone based on ethnicity is wrong. Doing it based on membership in a group that does no good is completely different.
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          • #6
            Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

            Does TG have any Italians? I'd like to hear their take on this issue. It's hard to judge their policy without seeing it from their point of view.
            "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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            • #7
              Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

              Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
              Doing it based on membership in a group that does no good is completely different.
              So if I'm in a group that the government doesn't like for one reason or another (criminal or not), it's okay? I'm gonna call shenanigans on that one as well.

              Didn't we just have a case not too long ago where, oh I dunno, authorities raided the compound of some group that people weren't too fond of and the courts decided that it wasn't legal? Again, we know gang bangers and other street hoodlums exist, but we can't just go around fingerprinting and cataloging them just because they hang with a certain group. The very idea goes against the whole innocent until proven guilty thing that we're very fond of in this country.
              [squadl]
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              • #8
                Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                Absolutely ridiculous. If you know anything about modern gypsies, you know that they are a criminal subculture that is responsible for much of the crime in the world. There's just no way to compare Jews to gypsies.

                I've had to deal with a couple of gypsies here in the US, and they were some of the scummiest people I've ever talked to. Their morals are seriously warped.
                replace Gypsy with Jew, and you'd have Germany in the 1930's. Funny how that works.

                Just to spell it out in case it was insufficiently clear. In many times and places, including here and now, Jews have been regarded as a class of criminals, thieves, baby killers, and numerous other undesirable things. The belief that Jewish religious practices require the kidnapping and murder of Christian or other children were once widespread in the west. Moreover, this story, referred to as the Blood Libel, is still believed in some parts of the world. Do you believe that? Don't you think it sounds sort of silly, ignorant, racist? But I bet you a nickle that your grandparent's parent's would have believed that, or any number of other equally ridiculous racial superstitions.

                Likewise, groups as diverse as Irish, Germans, Ukranians, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Arabs, Black Africans of various ethnic extractions, Mexicans, French, Thai, Russians, and bloody well damned near everyone else in this miserable world have, at one point or another, been accused of being ' criminal subculture that is responsible for much of the crime in the world'. And it's bunk. It's always bunk. People kill each other and launch pogroms and genocide because they believe crap like this. People murder each other because they believe these things.

                They kill each other by the thousands and the millions, and they do it because, what? because some poor kid on the street nicked their wallet, and he sort of looks like some other poor kid? Because some guys who sort of had dark skin and sort of spoke a different language bilked a friend of your cousin's friend on a driveway job? Seems kind of silly, but when you stir in a little nationalism and a ****ty economy people die. And don't call Godwin on me. This happens in every culture all the damned time. Mostly, people try to forget and don't talk about it, and it just keeps happening over and over again.

                I've heard it said that the American legal system is designed not to punish the guilty, but to protect the innocent. Some of the more infuriating parts of American law are intentional, because it's believed that it is better that ten guilty men go free than one innocent man is sent to the gallows. According to that concept we don't... well, traditionally we didn't go in for things like arbitrary arrests and detentions, search and seizure without a warrant, and so forth. I don't really know anything about Italian law, I don't know how Italians, as a culture, handle things. Speaking then, as an ignorant American, anytime you go after a culture or ethnicity as a whole in reaction to the actions of a some part of it's members, you make yourself the Bad Guys.

                I should point out that some of my family were, at some point in the past, Tinkers, a sort of Irish itinerant population that has some broad similarities to Roma, including being blamed for every horse ever stolen within a hundred miles. My family is now perfectly respectable and includes several doctors, lawyers and independent businessmen.
                Last edited by FrankManik; 07-11-2008, 04:11 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                  Originally posted by SmokingTarpan View Post
                  ...but we can't just go around fingerprinting and cataloging them just because they hang with a certain group.
                  What are you talking about? We already do that with suspected gang members right now!

                  Originally posted by FrankManik
                  replace Gypsy with Jew, and you'd have Germany in the 1930's. Funny how that works.
                  Not even close! Jews are an ethnicity that was discriminated against for no reason. Gypsies are a group of people of varied ethnicity that all tend to engage in criminal behavior. You don't see the difference?
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                  • #10
                    Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                    Gypsy is a catch all term for ethnic and cultural minorities that are broadly characterized by their tendency to travel from place to place rather than maintain a sedentary lifestyle.

                    Groups that are accurately described by the term Gypsy tend to be organized around cultural, ethnic, and familial lines. Examples include the Roma, or Romany, who are the traditional 'Gypsy' group and are themselves a distinct ethnic minority, theorized to have originated in India during the middle ages.

                    Take a look at some of the other groups that were sent to the camps and exterminted. Somewhere between 2 and 4 million Gypsies died in German extermination camps in the 40's, and 'Gypsy' was treated as something you inherited, the same as 'Jew'.

                    Perhaps you consider the term 'Gypsy' to mean something akin to a gang or other organized group of criminals, but for many people in many places the term applies to culturally and ethnically distinctive minorities, generally people who were displaced from their homelands decades or even hundreds of years ago, and due to the considerable differences between their culture and ethnicity and the culture and ethnicity of the people around them were never able to entirely settle and as such developed a semi-nomadic culture.

                    Very simply, at one point some people believed that all Jews tend to engage in criminal behavior. This is a historically attested fact. Currently, some people believe that all Gypsies tend to engage in criminal behavior. While it is indisputably true that some Gypsies engage in criminal behavior, the actions of one part of a group, especially a culture or ethnicity, cannot rightly be used to persecute the entire group.

                    Even more simply, how would you decide who is and is not a gypsy? By their clothes, their family, who their friends are? If someone's entire family is employed by the stealing of horses, do you arrest and detain that man also, even though he has an honest job and has never engaged in theft? Do you arrest the children of a thief, on the grounds that because they are Gypsies, they themselves will inevitably grow to become thieves? Do you raze and burn the camp of poor people, who exist largely outside of the benefits of society, condemning both the guilty and the innocent to homelessness, the elements, and dire and wretched poverty simply because of who they are?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                      http://www.spike.com/video/borat-gypsy-yard/2829273

                      This seems appropriate.
                      "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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                      • #12
                        Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                        Originally posted by FrankManik View Post
                        Even more simply, how would you decide who is and is not a gypsy?
                        Raze and burn? What are you talking about? How do you tell who is and is not a gang banging thug? Let's be honest here. It may not be easy to tell who is not a thug, but when someone is wearing droopy drawers, a bandana around their head, is covered in prison tats, and is walking around like the world owes them, it's pretty easy to put a label on that person.

                        I used to think that labels were a bad thing. Now I know that prejudice is an important part of life. There are certainly bad prejudices, but there are many, many good ones. Whether or not prejudice against gypsies is a good one is certainly up for debate, but to compare modern gypsies to pre-WWII Jews is absurd.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                          btw hundreds of thousands of gypsies were killed by Hitler during WW2. Its a common misconception that only jews were killed. He targeted gays, communists, cripples, and the mentaly retarded as well as jews and gypsies. We shouldnt be suprised that Italy appears so fascist from time to time considering fascism originated in Italy not Germany. But the Italians have had literally hundreds of governments sense ww2 so i wouldnt worry about these people being around for much longer. And where are you guys seeing all these Gypsies and how can you judge someones morality? Morality is a matter of opinion, its not written in stone.
                          "In general, our generals were outgeneralled"
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                          • #14
                            Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                            Gypsies come into the hospital all the time. And when they do they come in flocks. Trust me when I say that anything that is not nailed down disappears. Nurses purses, medical instruments, sheets, styrofoam cups anything. When they step foot into the hospital there are calls to every floor. They always have fake IDs and are all on Medicaid, although they have multi-million dollar address and Porsches. They will lie, cheat, scam, steal and find every loophole to exploit. You can say that they are the highest form of capitalist. They are educated by their parents in the art of scumbaggery from birth. They don't send their kids to school and they don't marry outside the clan. Unfortunately they are looked at as some sort of ethnic subset, but they are nothing but a crime family. The Jews have made enormous contributions to the world through medicine, literature, science, world peace, etc. The gypsies have done nothing but steal and live like parasites. Sort of like republicans. Sorry. Comparing the two is like comparing Ma Barker to Mother Teresa. If all you have is wiki to base your opinion on you will never understand.

                            Having said that I don't agree with the Italian governments actions, I don't believe in the rounding up of anyone. I am extremely prejudice against gypsies and actively look out for them. If you figure out that you are dealing with one you are probably already on a ride.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Italy moving back towards fascism?

                              Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                              Raze and burn? What are you talking about? How do you tell who is and is not a gang banging thug?
                              Eyewitness accounts, evidence derived from crime scenes, the tracking of stolen goods, possession of illegal drugs, illegal weapons, so forth and so on. My point is that to arrest and imprison someone for being black and wearing baggy pants is immoral and unjust. For the state to deprive someone of their freedom and liberty a crime must occur and be proven, before a jury, beyond the reasonable doubt of a select group of private citizens. That's how we do things. It more or less works, most of the time, and it keeps our police force and government about as honest as a policeforce or government can be in a country of our size and diversity.

                              Part of the reason I feel this way is because I was raised believing that American's have a duty to be 'The Good Guys'. We're supposed to follow the law, give people the benefit of the doubt, and protect Everyone's rights, freedoms, and privileges because We Got It Right.

                              Our way of doing things is the best there is, but if we don't stick to it, give everyone a chance at Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, then we're just hypocrites talking ourselves up. Even if it might not always be the smartest thing to do, we still have to act that way because if we don't we lose our claim as being better than the other guys. If we don't follow our own rules, we're just evil imperialist thugs, like the USSR or China or any of our nations enemies.

                              We can be the Good Guys, and be superior *******s about it, but we have to keep up our side, fight prejudice and discrimination, make sure everyone gets a fair deal and a vote, no matter how weird or different or scary they are.

                              Either way, even if you don't agree with me, thank you for taking the time to read what I have to say.

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