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  • Questions for military & LEO, past and present

    If you were given an order to go around confiscating lawfully owned weapons from citizens and or / to kill US citizens who refused to give up their weapons, would you obey that order (which would be violating your oath to defend the constitution) or refuse and go awol? Would you arrest whoever gave that order?

  • #2
    Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

    Good question! In New Orleans during katrina the national guard was ordered to take guns from people trying to protect their homes and unfortunately they did it. I am looking forward to the answers to this question.
    "In general, our generals were outgeneralled"
    -John Adams
    "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence."
    -Charles Beard

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    • #3
      Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

      You have to remember one thing up front about LEO and Military, neither make laws or policy. They are both there to uphold them. There may be things I really disagree with that are orders, laws, etc but that does not give me the right to disobey, minus some really rare exceptions.

      As for confiscating lawfully owned weapons, I would really have a hard time swallowing the idea. I am not a gun nut or anything, but if they are legal, why not let them have them? But on the flip side, I can also see the point of needing to disarm a situation. The safety of the masses could possibly outweigh certain rights, but I would still not like it. The question I would be curious about if you are relating it to Hurricane Katrina, did everyone get their legally owned guns back?

      As for going Awol? I really would not see that as ever being an option. Only part of the Oath of enlistment is the constitution, the rest mentions the President and the Officers appointed over me. You really have to weigh the orders and understand the consequences for disobeying the other parts. UCMJ is a bitch to fight.. ;)

      For the military only:
      Originally posted by Oath of Enlistment;
      "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
      "The chief foundations of all states, new as well as old or composite, are good laws and good arms; and as there cannot be good laws where the state is not well armed, it follows that where they are well armed they have good laws." -Machiavelli

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      • #4
        Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

        I swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I also swore to obey the President and my superiors.

        It's really situational.

        There would have to be a damn good reason...
        Skud


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        • #5
          Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

          Most are simply going to follow orders. A few might protest and be arrested. A few might go AWOL. A few might seem to go along and not actually complete the task.

          But most will just go along. Many of them are kids and have a hard time thinking for themselves let alone doing their own thing in the face of the military, its traditions and demands for complete obedience. I know I did.

          I simply refused to do the crossing the line ceremony and caught all kinds of hell from my superiors and peers.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
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          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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          • #6
            Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

            Originally posted by TheBigC View Post
            You have to remember one thing up front about LEO and Military, neither make laws or policy. They are both there to uphold them. There may be things I really disagree with that are orders, laws, etc but that does not give me the right to disobey, minus some really rare exceptions.

            As for confiscating lawfully owned weapons, I would really have a hard time swallowing the idea. I am not a gun nut or anything, but if they are legal, why not let them have them? But on the flip side, I can also see the point of needing to disarm a situation. The safety of the masses could possibly outweigh certain rights, but I would still not like it. The question I would be curious about if you are relating it to Hurricane Katrina, did everyone get their legally owned guns back?

            As for going Awol? I really would not see that as ever being an option. Only part of the Oath of enlistment is the constitution, the rest mentions the President and the Officers appointed over me. You really have to weigh the orders and understand the consequences for disobeying the other parts. UCMJ is a bitch to fight.. ;)

            For the military only:

            I just thought this would be good to add:

            The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
            I just thought I'd mention that I'm not talking about a small scenario like a signal household, I'm talking about full-scale disarmament of the general population of the US in a situation like after the declaration of martial law.

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            • #7
              Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

              Which isn't going to ever happen, but you are right: you don't have to obey ALL orders. If you end up court martial and they find that the orders were unlawful, it can be dropped.
              Skud


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              • #8
                Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                Lurking under this is the question, when is the Nuremberg defense acceptable?

                As the frog stews in his pot, what temperature is the point at which guns are seized?

                Recall that Paul Revere's famous ride was to alert the colonists that the government had sent troops to take their guns, presumably to "disarm a situation". The Boston Massacre was instigated by protesters creating a disturbance. Those who favored the super power of the time and wanted to maintain order by letting it have its way were the Tories. Who here is a Tory? Who here thinks the rebellion against that legitimate authority was wrong?

                And who will ride through the night, calling "The Americans are coming! The Americans are coming!"
                Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                • #9
                  Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                  "Which isn't going to ever happen"

                  I find your abundance of faith disturbing.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                    Not a soul in this community would know how they would respond to such a situation until said situation were to present itself to the populace. I doubt the collective officer corps would obey an order to kill U.S. citizens.

                    But for the sake of answering an interesting question: could I see some bloody events transpiring were this to ever occur? Of course... after all, all it would take is a few guys to shoot and members of the military and then the training would kick in. Is the American populace prepared to really defend their rights should the military sweep through the country on such a history-making mission? Absolutely not.

                    There's a whole lot of checks-and-balances to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening, Menth.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                      No situation ever permits the govt to take away our firearms. With Katrina, the person that gave that order should be brought up on charges. If you buy the logic that it put people in harms way then you can take the next step easy and make almost any situation apply. With Katrina, that was when those people NEEDED their right to bear arms the most!

                      I do believe however that if the order was given to the military, they would carry it out just as they did with Katrina. Hopefully the day will not come in my lifetime as I do not believe I could ever bring myself to fire on our honorable Men & Women in uniform to protect my rights.
                      Battlefield Samurai 'Banzaaaiii!!!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                        Originally posted by Gillespie View Post
                        But for the sake of answering an interesting question: could I see some bloody events transpiring were this to ever occur? Of course... after all, all it would take is a few guys to shoot and members of the military and then the training would kick in. Is the American populace prepared to really defend their rights should the military sweep through the country on such a history-making mission? Absolutely not.
                        The American military couldn't take care of a few hillbillys in Afghanistan. I don't think they could deal with the heavily armed American people. They would be out numbered and out gunned.

                        Originally posted by Gillespie View Post
                        There's a whole lot of checks-and-balances to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening, Menth.
                        Not in an emergency or if the government felt threatened. They will declare whatever they have to. There were many government actions against the people in the sixties.

                        Originally posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
                        No situation ever permits the govt to take away our firearms. With Katrina, the person that gave that order should be brought up on charges. If you buy the logic that it put people in harms way then you can take the next step easy and make almost any situation apply. With Katrina, that was when those people NEEDED their right to bear arms the most!
                        Agreed

                        Originally posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
                        I do believe however that if the order was given to the military, they would carry it out just as they did with Katrina. Hopefully the day will not come in my lifetime as I do not believe I could ever bring myself to fire on our honorable Men & Women in uniform to protect my rights.
                        One bullet coming your way and it wouldn't matter who was firing.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                          gotta love the hypothetical question.........i can't answer because i am a law enforcement officer, nor am i serving/or have i served in the military.
                          Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                          Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                          Level I HazMat Technician
                          NYS EMT-B
                          Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                            Originally posted by Gillespie View Post
                            I doubt the collective officer corps would obey an order to kill U.S. citizens.
                            A certain Timothy McVeigh??? Or Koresh? Perfect examples of US citizens that would be "dropped" in a heartbeat if known to be carrying a weapon intent on harm.

                            Originally posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet View Post
                            No situation ever permits the govt to take away our firearms.
                            Too general a comment. By this statement, you are declaring that you have greater power of authority than a democratically elected leadership that is charged with making decisions for whatever reason they see fit.

                            Unfortunately I believe this the "downside" to democracy. At what point and more importantly "who decides" that the ruling power of government should be disobeyed?

                            If a town becomes infected with a deadly disease that cannot be treated, you know it's the military that will get the "dirty job". But that is why every soldier realises when they sign up that there ARE going to be situations that they might not personally agree with but the very structure and command of what makes a military unit effective is the knowledge that whilst not all decisions will be the right ones, a decision WILL be made and thus the very foundation for Law and Order.

                            The moment that breaks down, anarchy ensues.

                            If people decide to arm themselves and go against a decision made by the government, where does it stop? What if they didnt like getting a speeding ticket? Does that mean because they are lawfully allowed to carry a gun, that they should then use that against the law enforcement officer? Of course not.

                            So why would ignoring the governments request to hand over arms be any different? You either agree to be governed by an elected government or you dont. You cannot pick and choose which elements/decisions you agree to be bound by or not.

                            Personally, I faced orders before that I didnt agree with, but I stll carried them out, that was my role and job. Nobody forced me to sign the papers to join.
                            BlackDog1




                            "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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                            • #15
                              Re: Questions for military & LEO, past and present

                              Originally posted by Delta*RandyShugart* View Post
                              gotta love the hypothetical question.........i can't answer because i am a law enforcement officer, nor am i serving/or have i served in the military.
                              my keyboard is horrible and i probably typed way too fast and posted without looking over properly, i am not a law enforcement officer, just want to clarify that for everyone.
                              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                              Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                              Level I HazMat Technician
                              NYS EMT-B
                              Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                              sigpic




                              Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                              RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                              Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                              Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                              We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

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