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  • Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

    [media]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410[/media]

    How do you all feel about this video? I especially want to hear the opinions of our European TG members. From what I understand, the radical Islamics in the Netherlands have been a real problem. What stands out in my mind was the murder of Theo Van Gogh. The messed up part to me is that while the Netherlands and much of Western Europe is a very liberal and tolerant society, and have accepted people of all races/colors/creeds to come and live in their accepting countries; the radical Islamics have come in and have been extremely INtolerant of things the Dutch accept, such as homosexuals or freedom of religion. I don't understand why one would move to a place that has extreme opposite values to what one believes, unless they have the intent and goal of changing that very place to make it what they want.
    "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

  • #2
    Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

    Tolerance and Intolerance simply don't mix. If a society considers itself Tolerant, its litmus test for admittance into it should be about the tolerance level of the immigrant. If that test fails, then the answer should be "Sorry, we believe in having a free and open country. You do not. Please select a more compatible country for your imcompatible beliefs."

    Just as nazis would not have a place in Isreal, extremist muslims do not have a place in a free society. Of course it seems logical... I don't understand why it's so hard for the European countries to understand.

    3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

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    • #3
      Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

      I think the video is alarmist and unhelpful. I seriously doubt that the democracy of the Netherlands is being put in jeapardy by the Islamic faith.

      Radical Islam is certainly a problem right now in a number of countries and is a major problem in countries like, Pakistan, the Phillipines, Somalia and Sudan. In viewing the conflicts there and elsewhere, one has to make the distinction between radical/jihadist Islam and Islam as a general religion and culture. An indirect parallel would be watching a video on the Branch Davidian sect of the Seveth-Day Adventist church and somehow applying that to Chrisitanity and the Bible in general. While radical Islam is a far broader threat to peaceful civilization, it is a mistake to condemn the Islamic faith or its holiest texts.

      Hatred in the form of religious fanaticism will exist as long as religion exists. No one form is better or worse than another. It is fought with peace and justice, no more and no less. Willful intolerance only serves to perpetuate the problem.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

        Agree with Mosely on this. However there is a growing resentment building in the UK and other European countries for the more extreme Muslims who are in fact taking over certain areas of countries and making their own rules as to what is acceptable and peer pressure is stopping the Police and Intelligence services from gathering the information they truly need in order to find the really evil bastards.

        The Islamic faith in no way shape or form preaches the death of others. However texts and scriptures are hijacked to suit the cause of a minority who if they were not fighting their religious cause, they would be robbing banks or doing other equally useless to society acts of anarchy. It is fair to say that the Christian world also has its fair share of lunatics.

        Religion is the greatest form of conflict since the dark ages. Unfortunately conflict is built into every animal on this planet; it simply varies as to the reason or cause of the conflict.

        Unfortunately it is US liberal thinking from places like Berkley University, and the entire 60's generation that have put us in the mess we are in today, with the belief that everyone can live together in peace and harmony.

        Unfortunately from now until the end of time there will be a minority that will do their level best to inflict/convert/force their views onto the majority by force if need be. Unfortunately the liberal view that these things can be discussed and if you simply help these people they will put down their arms and bombs and join society, is pure folly. Unfortunately a very mild mannered man who simply only wanted to help the people of Baghdad, by the name of Ken Bigley from Liverpool, UK, found this to his cost. While helping at aid stations and hospitals for I believe the Red Cross, was captured and ultimately "beheaded", "Live" on camera and then this was posted on the internet.

        Another example was the IRA, a terrorist group in Ireland that killed people for over 30 years who were a minority opinion group. They could not win a democratic majority campaign and so they turned to the gun and bomb instead. Unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, when 9-11 happened, their money supply from New York and Boston was cut and so they “Chose” the democratic route thereafter. How nice of them!!!!

        It is for reasons of the above that a hatred has come about by some small minded people about Islam per se. personally I would like to get rid of any "religious" based schools as I believe this is doing nothing but creating the next generation of religious fanatics.

        Religion I believe is best left at home and children should not have their education tarnished by particular religious views.

        However coming back to the point in question, Holland is a key example of how a particularly liberal view on many subjects will come back and bite them. They have traditionally been weak on drugs, prostitution and immigration and now the average citizen is beginning to say "I have had enough". Including a push now to limit or ban the drugs culture that made Amsterdam famous for so many years.

        Democratic Society is based on majority view and opinion and I take offence to any minority that feels it must force its rights or ways on the majority; this could be religious, sexual or race lead arguments. However it is always the minority that shouts loudest and bullies their way through the media and any other medium abusing "Human Rights" laws as a means to achieve their own objectives.

        So far, I have always found the most hardcore "Liberal" thinkers, the most closed minded individuals to others opinions. I.e. Your view is wrong as long as you disagree with me!

        As to why Europe has not done anything about the rising support for Sharia Law amongst some of the Muslim communities, it is because of US created Human Rights Laws which were adopted by the European Parliament making it now almost impossible to clamp down on any extreme groups for the knowledge that said targeted group will fight their case in court under "breach of human rights" banners.

        A classic example is Abu Hamza in London, who is currently serving a 7 year prison sentence for inspiring murder and racial hatred. However pressure was being applied from Europe to allow him his "European Human Rights" despite his open and public demonstrations and calls for the killing of western forces and non-Islamists.

        All this comes back to check and balance. Unfortunately the State has a duty to the majority of it's citizens to uphold their wishes and beliefs as per democratically elected manifesto. Those who have no wish to accept others in a democratic society have no place living in a democratic society as their views go completely against that of the majority. Therefore rules, security, regulation and law are the only defence we have against any extremists of any faith.

        Once this is no longer sufficient, there become ultimate breakdown of civil order and conflict on a global scale breaks out.

        We are at a very dangerous time, as the minority (extreme Islamist's, other terrorist groups and even some government agencies) are threatening the majority and ultimately we may end up in conflict again on a global scale. This is not something new and has happened throughout time.

        The only saving grace is a time in the future. Whilst this may seem farfetched to some, certain films like Terminator and I-Robot, prove the dangerous line we as human beings run. If we create an artificial intelligence for use in robots, there WILL come a time at some point in the future where the processing capability of that robot will calculate far in advance of any human brain that it believes it knows better. Anyone who does not believe this day will come is naive. That will be the day that humans irrespective of race, religion colour of creed will join together for their own greater good and survival, irrespective of background and belief.

        Here is another thought for you......

        Forgetting the great threat from the Islamic Extremists for now, there is possible a greater threat to all of us, by a group of Swiss scientists who are trying to recreate on a very small scale a "Black Hole". The issue of this being, whilst highly unlikely to be successful, if successful, there could be global disasterous effects by opening "Pandora's Box" as we have no idea if such an event could even be controlled? This had been admitted as such by the scientists and yet they continue to try to create one anyway! Such is the nature of a human being, determination to satisfy personal objective possibly at the cost of the greater majority.

        So.....whilst this has turned out to be longer than I intended....it is just per personal opinion as to the true situation in Europe and the threats that we face as a whole today!
        BlackDog1




        "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

          Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
          I don't understand why one would move to a place that has extreme opposite values to what one believes, unless they have the intent and goal of changing that very place to make it what they want.
          That is exactly their intent. I know some missionaries that repeatedly go into harms way. I ask them why and they say to spread Christianity.

          Well, ok. Sweet. God be with you and I hope you convert millions.

          Of course I think these extremists are actually hiding from the world at large. They move to where they are allowed and they don't seem to be trying to convert the locals. They seem to be trying to change the laws, sometimes through threats or intimidation, to reflect their beliefs. And if they can't change the law then they create their own law even if it means ignoring the countries law.

          I don't really like that.

          If they want to preach and try and convince me to follow the Islamic faith then fine. Have at it. But don't try and force me to it through laws or fear of physical harm.

          This is the same thing I have against Christians and their dirty little fingers reaching into law. I know they don't like gay marriage. They should try and convince people not to be gay. But getting laws passed that prohibit gay marriage? Bad. And this is just one example. In this respect I don't see them as any different from the Islamic extremist.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

            Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
            This is the same thing I have against Christians and their dirty little fingers reaching into law. I know they don't like gay marriage. They should try and convince people not to be gay. But getting laws passed that prohibit gay marriage? Bad. And this is just one example. In this respect I don't see them as any different from the Islamic extremist.
            Thats not the best example to use though mate, as the very act of marriage is a religious event and the Bible does clearly state "man shall not lie with man" and that "Marriage" per se is based on a religious basis. I see no reason why Gay's cannot have a "civil union" with the same rights as marriage, just not call it mariage. Again this is a majority view and opinion versus the minority view.

            But I whole heartedly agree with the point your making.
            BlackDog1




            "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

              Marriage in a legal sense is just a union between people that is recognized with some tax incentives. It doesn't matter what the bible clearly states -- we are dealing with government and law -- not scripture.

              This topic is best left for its own thread though...
              |TG|Switch

              Better known as:
              That noob who crashed the chopper.
              That noob who ran over the mine.
              That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
              That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

                This part I agree with:

                Originally posted by Blackdog1-22 Reg.SAS View Post
                However there is a growing resentment building in the UK and other European countries for the more extreme Muslims who are in fact taking over certain areas of countries and making their own rules as to what is acceptable and peer pressure is stopping the Police and Intelligence services from gathering the information they truly need in order to find the really evil bastards.

                The Islamic faith in no way shape or form preaches the death of others. However texts and scriptures are hijacked to suit the cause of a minority who if they were not fighting their religious cause, they would be robbing banks or doing other equally useless to society acts of anarchy. It is fair to say that the Christian world also has its fair share of lunatics.
                This part I completely disagree with:

                Originally posted by Blackdog1-22 Reg.SAS View Post
                Unfortunately it is US liberal thinking from places like Berkley University, and the entire 60's generation that have put us in the mess we are in today, with the belief that everyone can live together in peace and harmony.
                While it may indeed by a folly, as you say, to think that peace can be made with violent exremists, you have got it wrong about the roots of the 'mess' we find ourselves in today. It is established fact that modern (20th Century) Islamic extremism cites the rise of the State of Israel and the imperialism of the West (America and Europe) as the reason for their continued violence. There is a deep seeded belief among many Muslims - both militant and not - that the West intends to undermine their faith and country. In recent years, American and European efforts in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and to some extent Pakistan have served to perpetuate this perception. The liberal view, however futile, has done nothing to perpetuate the conflict. Furthermore, if you believe that radical Islam could somehow be crushed had liberal thought not held back the hammer, I would argue you are mistaken there as well.

                Originally posted by Blackdog1-22 Reg.SAS View Post
                Forgetting the great threat from the Islamic Extremists for now, there is possible a greater threat to all of us, by a group of Swiss scientists who are trying to recreate on a very small scale a "Black Hole". The issue of this being, whilst highly unlikely to be successful, if successful, there could be global disasterous effects by opening "Pandora's Box" as we have no idea if such an event could even be controlled? This had been admitted as such by the scientists and yet they continue to try to create one anyway! Such is the nature of a human being, determination to satisfy personal objective possibly at the cost of the greater majority.
                Fascinating - a critical flaw in human nature. I agree, and I think this flaw in our self-protecting logic may indeed be our ultimate demise as a species. I've brought this element into the global warming/climate change debate as well, but did not find too many takers. To tie this back to Islamic extremism and the culture/religious wars - we have a very long way to come in terms of acting as a unified species. We must overcome our bitter distrust of one another (and one another's beliefs and cultures) if we are ever to evolve out of the current phase we are in.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

                  Originally posted by AMosely View Post
                  The liberal view, however futile, has done nothing to perpetuate the conflict. Furthermore, if you believe that radical Islam could somehow be crushed had liberal thought not held back the hammer, I would argue you are mistaken there as well.
                  Ok. I'd agree with you that liberalism isn't quite the root cause for their hatred of us. However, liberal thinking (I mean the love all, accept all mentality) has allowed these droves of Muslim extremists to practically invade their countries. And THEN once these hard line extremists live in places like the Netherlands, they HATE our ways of life, such as accepting homosexuals and womens lib. They ignore our laws, they perform "honor killings," so on and so forth. Thankfully these extremist clowns are in the minority of Muslims, but there's enough of them to be a serious problem. Should this be cause for xenophobia? I don't think so. But it should be cause for some changes in our accepting mentalities. For example, many schools don't allow Christians to openly pray, but while allowing the Muslims to pray at their designated times. People are afraid of offending the Muslims for some reason. Some schools even had days off for Muslim religious holy days. I really don't have a problem with allowing prayer (Muslim or Christian), BUT if we are going to ban the Christians from doing what they want, we should be fair and ban the Muslims from doing their stuff as well. As long as both parties get equal treatment.
                  "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

                    There's always been tension in the US between the tolerance of the law and the intolerance of individual cultures living under that law.

                    I think the mistake of the Berkeley brand of liberalism is that it compromises general liberty by appeasing the intolerance of selected minorities. They've lost sight of the forest for the sake of one tree. (The analogy is particularly apt when one looks at the recent news about tree squatters blocking the university from building their new sports complex.)
                    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                    • #11
                      Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

                      Originally posted by AMosely View Post
                      This part I completely disagree with:
                      While it may indeed by a folly, as you say, to think that peace can be made with violent exremists, you have got it wrong about the roots of the 'mess' we find ourselves in today. It is established fact that modern (20th Century) Islamic extremism cites the rise of the State of Israel and the imperialism of the West (America and Europe) as the reason for their continued violence. There is a deep seeded belief among many Muslims - both militant and not - that the West intends to undermine their faith and country. In recent years, American and European efforts in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and to some extent Pakistan have served to perpetuate this perception. The liberal view, however futile, has done nothing to perpetuate the conflict. Furthermore, if you believe that radical Islam could somehow be crushed had liberal thought not held back the hammer, I would argue you are mistaken there as well.
                      I agree, with what your saying, especially with the clear support of Israel (I wonder if the shoe was on the other foot whethr Israel would be so supportive back, personally I think not). Again the (minority extremists) want Israel gone, period. What is especially screwed up about the Palestinian arguement stems from the fact that Palestinians and Jews all came from the same tribe originally!! (But that again is a whole other topic of conversation!)

                      I guess my views on the the liberalist left, come from my experience living in the UK. I have seen first hand, just as Warmonger states above, how due to "European Human Rights Law" certain groups have been allowed to get away with blue murder and yes even in the UK we have had "honor" killings by Mother In-Laws who disapproved of their Daughter In-Law's. It is simply not acceptable for certain practices to be allowed, but I have seen a growing trend of "appeasement" and "well their ways are different" and numerous other excuses as to why these acts are committed. This kind of "nannying and soft thinking" is not acceptable. We have laws as a country and all those living in it must abide by them or get out. Not force them to be changed for their own good.

                      In short, John Howard - Australian PM hit the nail perfectly on the head. "You want to live in our country, you live by our rules" making it very clear than anyone who integrates in society is welcome. However many are not intragrating, they take the free money handouts, the free healthcare then join protests (or worse) against the very government that allowed them to get out of the hell hole they came from for a better life.

                      I do use Liberal thinking as the main cause for this, as it was the socialist left wing Labour government of Wilson that began the demise of the UK's strength and ability to turn to people and say "if you do that, we will charge you with treason, and if found guilty of treason you will no longer live among us, but will leave this planet forth with". Does the threat of this work? Oh yes, example: Theft - We now have "Social Experts" telling the virtue of talking to kids and getting them to express themselves as to why they are stealing cars, breaking and entering property, carrying knives, etc. That these criminals should be given "more" as it is really not their fault as to why they are doing what they are doing and that community service is much better for them. Compare this to Saudi Aradia: get caught stealing there and there is no social counselor saying "there there its not your fault". No, in Saudi, if found guilty they chop off your hand! Guess what.... it works. For fear of the big stick is much greater than a soft spoken individual. This is spoken from experience of being the son of an Ex-Scotland Yard senior Police Officer who has seen the decline over the last 40 years due to the increasing "Liberal" pandering to talk about certain problems more than creating a line that once people cross that line, they deserve punishmemt. We have a soaring knife crime problem in the UK, as the Police have been stopped from doing random "stop and searches" on the street as "Human Rights lawyers" claimed that in Brixton and Camberwell in London, over 80% of those stopped by Police, were Black. No mention was made of the fact that 90% of the people who live in the area are in fact Black? Just as 80% of the people stopped in Windsor in Surrey would be white, (no one brought the white arguement to Court though). Kids now know they can carry a knife becasue they will not be randomely stopped and searched by Police. If the kids knew they faced an instant 5 year Prison sentence with no jury for carrying a knife, guess what, Knife carrying would stop for the majoirty, just as theft in Saudi has reduced to the hard core criminals, because the repercussions are too great.

                      Instead we have idiots coming onto the TV trying to convince the masses that really we just need to better understand the extremists and everything will be fine.

                      Personally, I DO understand sometimes how the double standards of the western world can be looked at by the Muslim world and have them say "hey! how can you choose who has nuclear weapons? does that make you better than us?". I also appreciate the security we have to ensure these weapons do not get into the wrong hands, which cannot be said for certain other countries.

                      So my point per se, is the gradual weakening of opposition to minority groups in general and that I do firmly believe has come about through what I shall call "Liberal thinking" where too much is given in terms of consession which ultimately does get given back.

                      Warmonger brings up an interesting point and there was an almighty wave of public opinion generated by a school sending a young girl home and not allowed back, as she was wearing a very small gold cross necklace. The school felt it would offend some of the Muslim children that also attended the school, yet the Muslim girls can wear the headscarfs? Double standards? Totally. This is why I go back to my original point that Religion has no place in schools.

                      The liberal view of greater understanding, etc etc, does not get used by everyday citizens, as they have no need to use it if they live their lives normally, however it is always used by the minority to get their way. The greatest evil bastards who have started this are in fact Lawyers, who for the simple means to make money, champion the cause of the minority against the majority.

                      However, until the West stops spending Trillions of dollars blowing the crap out of stuff in the middle east and starts investing "HUGE" sums of money and I do mean "HUGE", then this will continue as right now, there are parts of Iraq that still do not have running water which did have water previously under Saddam. We take, take, take and try to make a democracy from a tribal country that has fought for 3000 years, whilst siting back and enjoying our good life. This is what the avergage Muslim is pointed out by their extremist scholars (whilst handing the family $5 which buys them a week/months worth of food) and this is why we lose support of the very people we are meant to be helping. We should blitz the country and I do mean "BLITZ" the country with supply flights, logistics and contractors covered by 1,000,000 extra troops from NATO countries if need be to guarantee safety and build, build, build and once we have given them infrastructure, turn to them as a people as say, "right we have done our bit, now it is down to you to control or turn against your extremist criminals and hunt them down."

                      If we can give them a more stable life, then we have a chance, a small one, but a chance to get the majority Muslim world support for a peaceful end to hostilities. Unfortunatly their terrorists/criminals will forever be that and they simply need hunting down and exterminating like a household pest.
                      BlackDog1




                      "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Fitna - Islamisation in the Netherlands.

                        Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                        There's always been tension in the US between the tolerance of the law and the intolerance of individual cultures living under that law.

                        I think the mistake of the Berkeley brand of liberalism is that it compromises general liberty by appeasing the intolerance of selected minorities. They've lost sight of the forest for the sake of one tree. (The analogy is particularly apt when one looks at the recent news about tree squatters blocking the university from building their new sports complex.)
                        Absolutely spot on mate!!!!

                        I think you hit the nail square on the head!
                        BlackDog1




                        "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

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