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  • Thoughts on CERN?

    Some of you may or may not know of the "Big Bang Machine" which is soon to go online. Many fear this could alter physics as we know it and some even go as far as to state that the creation of microscopic Blackholes once created, cannot be put back in the box!!

    Interesting subject and one which begs the question, will mankind actually be responsible for its own demise rather than an act of natural disaster:

    Will black holes swallow Earth?
    Doomsday fears ignited by big-bang machine

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Posted: May 23, 2008
    11:40 pm Eastern

    © 2008 WorldNetDaily

    The Large Hadron Collider
    Could the upcoming launch of the world's biggest atomic particle smasher – nicknamed the Big Bang Machine – touch off a cataclysmic event that dooms our planet?

    That's the fear of some critics of the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland, which is built to slam protons together at an unprecedented peak energy of 14 trillion electron volts – nearing levels scientists believe were reached in the first microseconds after the "big bang."

    The critics have filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government and the European Organization for Nuclear Research in Geneva, known as CERN, as scientists prepare to bring the collider online in July.

    Co-plaintiffs Walter Wagner and Luis Sancho fear that when the collider reaches full power, it could create black holes or strangelets that would grow and eventually consume the Earth.

    A black hole is a region of space so dense that light cannot escape its gravitational pull. Scientists have not proved the existence of strangelets, a hypothetical cosmological object containing an exotic form of matter.

    Physicists at CERN and similar research facilities dismiss the doomsday claim as nonsense. But Wagner, a former nuclear safety officer who says he's studied physics for more than 30 years, wants the project shelved for four months to allow time for further safety reviews.

    Fermilab in Illinois, which has the lead U.S. role in the Large Hadron Collider, also is a defendant in the suit, along with the U.S. Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation, according to MSNBC.

    The Justice Department says it will not comment on the case before it files a response next month.

    Federal attorneys are not expected to focus on the black hole question. They have successfully handled previous lawsuits by Wagner by narrowing their defense to issues such as claims the government and government-funded scientists have complied with environmental guidelines.

    Scientists at CERN hope to see the first low-power proton collisions later this summer or in the fall. The collider will not reach full power – the big bang energies – until next year. By that time the Justice Department hopes the legal issues will be resolved.

    Instant car melter

    Fermilab currently has the world's largest collider, with a circumference of about four miles. But the new particle accelerator, buried an average of 100 meters below the border between France and Switzerland, is 17 miles around and will have seven times the energy of Fermilab's Tevatron accelerator.

    The particle smashers, used to study the nuclei of atoms, take two beams of protons and smash them together after reaching extremely high energies. Scientists hope, in the process, to discover new types of smaller particles, known as quarks.

    The beam of energy produced by the Swiss collider will be powerful enough to melt a small car almost instantly.

    Wagner insisted safety reports he has seen so far do not rule out his black-hole scenario.

    "For all I know, they will come up with some other novel argument that proves this can't happen," he said, according to MSNBC. "We want to see an argument that absolutely proves it ... because otherwise it ends up being [a statement that] 'we have no way of calculating.' And that, to me, is a scary proposition."

    But theoretical physicist Michio Kaku, author of "Physics of the Impossible," said in a February MSNBC interview he isn't worried.

    "I'm going to sleep well when that machine is turned on, because I know that cosmic rays have more energy than the Large Hadron Collider, and you don't see black holes from outer space," he said. "These are microscopic in size, and they don't last long."

    Wagner further explained his concerns to Vancouver, B.C.'s Straight.com

    "A micro black hole would simply bounce around, hitting other atoms and absorbing them into itself," he said, then, over a period of months or years the reaction would eventually grow to swallow the Earth.

    Wagner said a strangelet is potentially more stable than existing matter. Therefore, he said, if one were created inside the collider, it would convert any matter it touched into a part of itself.

    "The larger atom would eventually convert all of the Earth into a large strange atom," Wagner told Straight.com

    Wagner's complaint for a temporary restraining order to halt the project reads in part:

    "There is no question that should defendants inadvertently create a dangerous form of matter … or otherwise create unsafe conditions of physics, then the environmental impact would be both local and national in scope, and quite deadly to everyone."

    A Canadian scientist who works on the project, Dugan O'Neil of Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, admitted to Straight.com that it's impossible to completely rule out some "very strange things" resulting from the new mega-collider. He, nevertheless, is not too concerned.

    "It would be fascinating if those theories were right," O'Neil, said, somewhat in jest. "But the probability that they're right is exceedingly small."

    O'Neil argued "there's no evidence that microscopic black holes exist; there's no evidence that strangelets exist."

    Missing the creator for the particles?

    John Conway, a University of California at Davis professor of physics and collaborator on the project, calls the collider "the greatest engineering feat of all mankind."

    "It took the combined resources of nearly all of the countries in the world and thousand and thousands of scientists," he told the California Aggie, his school's newspaper. "People started designing this in the early 1990s and only now is it reaching completion."

    A Straight.com reader, however, conveyed a different perspective on the project in a letter to the editor.

    Michael Hey said it's reassuring to know there's only a small chance the collider will suck the Earth into a minature black hole, but there is a "more realistic peril."

    "Consider the possibility that this research represents an intellectual dead end," he said. "Unfortunately, since so much money has been invested into a particular way of thinking about the world, it has become next to impossible for leading physicists to remain truly open-minded about what the universe is really telling us."

    Hey reasoned that instead of expending more and more energy to "divide space," wouldn't it "make more sense to abandon the search for a fundamental particle in favor of a fundamental pattern of creation?"

    "The Large Hadron Collider represents a monumental technological achievement," he allowed. "Unfortunately, this leaves ordinary people mystified and confused, stuck with the pervasive (and, to my mind, mistaken) impression that physics can only be understood by physicists."

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I knew it....the Swiss are the new Terrorists!!!!!!!!!

    :D
    BlackDog1




    "What we do in life... echoes in eternity!"

  • #2
    Re: Thoughts on CERN?

    Well, if they do create black holes (which even a microscopic sized one is thought to have a mass greater than 500 times that of our sun), theres not much we can do about it, considering it would probably consume the entire planet in short order. So I'll carry on my normal everyday life and hope that it leads to better science rather than the end of the world.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thoughts on CERN?

      Don't worry about the black holes. They are super tiny. Some scientist say there are black holes that pass through the earth periodically.

      One of the podcasts I listen to had a well known physicist talking about that and a bunch more interesting stuff.

      Let me see if I can find it. Pretty sure it was a NovaNOW.

      Nope, a TWiT Futures in Biotech.

      This is an absoluty fabulous podcast. It has Dr. Michio Kaku and he talks about all kinds of physic topics. Including transporting thing like in Star Trek.
      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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      • #4
        Re: Thoughts on CERN?

        NOT HAPPENING!

        Why am I so sure?

        If it doesn't happen, I'm right! If it does happen, who the hell cares?! Were all dead!


        Community, not corporation!

        TG-Irr BetterDeadThanRe(D)

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        Irregs PR CO

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        • #5
          Re: Thoughts on CERN?

          Why the heck do they want to do this? What is their goal? How are they allowed to do this? I must admit, I'm not a fan of this project.
          "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Thoughts on CERN?

            Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
            Why the heck do they want to do this? What is their goal? How are they allowed to do this? I must admit, I'm not a fan of this project.
            They want to find out how the Universe began. They want to answer some of the most basic questions.

            There is absolutely nothing to fear about any of this. As the good doctor in the Pod Cast points out the amount of energy these things will have will be very small. Not even enough to light a light bulb.

            The people that brought up the "black hole eventually swallowing the earth" are crackpots. To me it is the same as saying "What if build my house close to the cemetery I piss off a ghost and he kills me." I can't completely rule out the possibility but it isn't something I have to worry about.
            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Thoughts on CERN?

              We've had an accelerator operating under Chicago for years now.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermilab
              A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

              "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                Why the heck do they want to do this? What is their goal? How are they allowed to do this? I must admit, I'm not a fan of this project.
                They also want to find the Higgs particle.
                -F- Darksteel

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                  Seeing that the collider is half in Switzerland and half in France.. I am a little concerned.

                  Switzerland is nice and neutral, they have good chocolate and cheese. If the subparticle black hole were created on the Switzerland side, it would likely remain a neutral attractor and give us plenty of time to study it and learn something..

                  France.. well, if it were to happen on the French side.. wow.. now I am worried. Although, it would probably just roll over and let a Higgs particle consume it.
                  sigpic


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                  • #10
                    Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                    Well that makes a lot of sense...
                    -F- Darksteel

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                      I'm not sure how i feel about this. On one hand the chances of any of this black hole thing happening are very very low. but there is a chance. It should also be noted that they are not even sure if they will be able to find out anything useful with this device. but there is a chance.

                      I just don't know how i feel about someone taking a chance at destroying the planet for the chance to maybe find something that really does not matter a whole lot.

                      | |

                      My friends call me Y. My enemies call me... well, that's a secret.


                      "The only reason I team killed you is because I though you were already dead...
                      ...Oh god, I just know that is going in someones signature" - Eroak

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                      • #12
                        Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                        Originally posted by YdoUwant2know View Post
                        I'm not sure how i feel about this. On one hand the chances of any of this black hole thing happening are very very low. but there is a chance. It should also be noted that they are not even sure if they will be able to find out anything useful with this device. but there is a chance.

                        I just don't know how i feel about someone taking a chance at destroying the planet for the chance to maybe find something that really does not matter a whole lot.
                        There is a chance that you blowing your nose will cause God to destroy the world. Sounds silly but that chance is about the same as the blackhole swallowing the world scenario.

                        There is a chance that the billions of cosmic rays crashing into our planet will also cause a blackhole. You don't worry about that, do you?
                        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                          The energies this thing works at is a joke. Nowhere near what's required for any "world-ending" event. All you have to do is study up on what's needed to actually poke holes in space and you'll see.

                          Also, we're building much more powerful accelerators in the near future (post 2010). If such a big hubbub is being made over this thing... watchout. There are linear accelerators coming online soon more powerful than the Stanford one that will dwarf the energies of the LHC. The difference lies in what they're actually searching for.

                          LHC is basically built to find the Higgs-Boson. And that's it. If it finds it its mission is completed; the Standard Model will be "complete." It BARELY has the theoretical power necessary to do the job.

                          When people wonder why we build things like the LHC they have to realize the shear amount of manpower and "thought-energy" that has gone into particle Physics (or modern physics in general). It's really staggering. These days it may take YEARS for one man to devise a viable theory on any such matter, however micro. or macroscopic. LHC is designed to give experimental credence to this work and it's a necessary thing to do... or else we're shafting our "god-given" ability to think by relying too heavily on un-tested Faith.

                          If you TRULY want to be afraid... be afraid when the Allen Array comes online and we find E.T. Be afraid when we reach Absolute Zero. Be afraid when a room temperature superconductor is found.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                            Originally posted by P8riot View Post
                            Seeing that the collider is half in Switzerland and half in France.. I am a little concerned.

                            Switzerland is nice and neutral, they have good chocolate and cheese. If the subparticle black hole were created on the Switzerland side, it would likely remain a neutral attractor and give us plenty of time to study it and learn something..

                            France.. well, if it were to happen on the French side.. wow.. now I am worried. Although, it would probably just roll over and let a Higgs particle consume it.
                            Absolutely classic!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Thoughts on CERN?

                              *sigh* Nothing like laymen and reporters completely misinterpreting the top physicists in the field and crying that "we shouldn't mess with things we don't fully understand!" That's the whole damn point of science.
                              I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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