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  • Evolution from one species to another

    I've read in many places online, including here on the TG forums that "evolution is a scientifically proven fact." This statement always comes up when creationism is being discussed.

    I believe in creationism, but would like some evidence from fellow TGers regarding evolution, and its status as scientific fact. The facts I'm looking for are not in regard to inter-species evolution, as I will agree happens quite frequently. The facts I am looking for are related to evolving from one species into another.

    I've always viewed the evolution of a species into another species more as Darwinism, perhaps there is a better term.

    This "Darwinism" is what I have a problem with, not evolution, unfortunately they tend to become intertwined in most discussions. I come here with an open mind, and a desire to learn, don't disappoint!

  • #2
    Re: Evolution from one species to another

    Originally posted by Hitchins View Post
    I've read in many places online, including here on the TG forums that "evolution is a scientifically proven fact." This statement always comes up when creationism is being discussed.

    I believe in creationism, but would like some evidence from fellow TGers regarding evolution, and its status as scientific fact. The facts I'm looking for are not in regard to inter-species evolution, as I will agree happens quite frequently. The facts I am looking for are related to evolving from one species into another.

    I've always viewed the evolution of a species into another species more as Darwinism, perhaps there is a better term.

    This "Darwinism" is what I have a problem with, not evolution, unfortunately they tend to become intertwined in most discussions. I come here with an open mind, and a desire to learn, don't disappoint!
    I personally view evolution in regards to all other species besides homosapiens as true. However, humans I believe originally evolved without outside intervention up to a point, and at some point some of the pre-humans that existed then were genetically modified by a more advanced species (or possibly more than one, as I've heard) that resulted in the humans we are today. I think, as I've also heard, that we were modified originally to serve as workers and miners for whatever the original species that modified us was. They're generally called the annunaki. As for the rest of life on this planet, the evidence of evolution is tangible, as it has been observed by studying the changes in various species (usually species that reproduce easily and in large numbers, while having a short individual life span). I think that for more complex life the process is slower, but drastic changes can occur within one individual's lifespan. For example, the winged cats:

    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1215/...8abe9b.jpg?v=0

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    • #3
      Re: Evolution from one species to another

      I believe the earth is flat, despite what all of those so-called 'scientists' say.

      Also, you might want to look into things like:

      Domesticated animals (dogs, cats, etc)
      Aquarium fish specifically bred for certain traits
      Cows with enormous udders

      Also, no simpler evidence of evolution:
      Antibiotic resistant bacteria (or is that a product of god's will, punishing us for our sins?)

      3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Evolution from one species to another

        Wow, one hostile response, and one sarcastic. Was I naive in expecting to get a real response?

        Chris, I don't know why you're being so hostile to me. You could have linked to your favorite book on the subject instead.

        Tempus, I agree with inter-species evolution, I was looking for evolving from one species to another.

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        • #5
          Re: Evolution from one species to another

          I'm actually glad you asked this right now, because I am re-reading a series of Carl Sagan lectures entitled 'The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God.' He addresses this issue in numerous places, and has done so in other books as well. I like his approach to it, and so will cite it here.

          First of all, the evidence of the evolution of life on Earth is beyond replete - from the geologic and fossil record of extinct species to the micro-biologic and genetic records. Evolution of humankind is also laid out before us, although it only spans millions of years versus the more than 4.5 billion years that the Earth has existed as a geologic planet. The simple fact that religious history fails to even accept this scientific fact - the age of the Earth and the human race on it - is only one of a long line of engrained falsehoods brought about by nothing more than religious beliefs (the Earth is flat, that it is the center of the Universe and solar system). These facts are now considered without debate because they can readily be proven and even observed. Evolution, and I would argue the uniqueness of the human species itself - are among the latest scientific understandings to be misinterpreted by humankind. It is a scientific-theologic debate that we are all living out in our lifetimes.

          The fundamental problem of humankind's ability to readily accept evolution and natural selection as a fact has to do with the fact that it is not directly observable (though lab experiements have proven it time and again at various levels, they cannot prove it on the human species itself). The reason it is not directly observable has to do with one of the basic universal laws that humans are stuck with - the perception of time. Sagan cites a fairly easy example of this - suppose you were to sit in a room and have your father walk into the room, followed by your grandfather, and your great-grandfather, and so on, it would take one week before you would see a quadraped walk through the door - and even that creature would only be the beginning of an even longer line of species.

          Natural selection, the primary vehicle of evolution, is actually observable fact - and there are many examples of this taking place in front of you today, both in the human species and others. Evolution itself, however, will forever be considered theoretical fact because humans are so far universally incapable of accepting the time scale on which it takes place.

          Sagan covered some of this in his 'Cosoms' series, of which the evolution and natural selection segment can be viewed here. It is somewhat dated and perhaps corny, but there you have evolution right there - the evolution of style and the human perception of it. There are vast quantities of other scientific data available as well.

          Just look at the world around you - every single bit of it. From Carl Sagan's tweed jacket and bowl-cut to your internal tolerance for lactose in cow's milk, evolution is the norm as a function of time - static unchanging is the great exception.

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          • #6
            Re: Evolution from one species to another

            Evolution isn't really a simple concept that you could explain within the context of one (or even a few posts). If you're interested in learning more about speciation, you could look here.

            As for the "Evolution is fact" side, yes that's true. But it's also a theory. Just like gravity is a theory, but also a fact. It's an explanation that best fits the evidence available.

            Originally posted by mentholated View Post
            I think that for more complex life the process is slower, but drastic changes can occur within one individual's lifespan. For example, the winged cats:

            http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1215/...8abe9b.jpg?v=0
            That's not "evolution" anymore so than a human being born with an 11th digit or other type of mass. At least it's not the definition outside of "X-Men" or "Star Trek."

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            • #7
              Re: Evolution from one species to another

              I think that evolution as we know it will... evolve over time and the theory we know today will not exactly match what we will know down the road. I believe that in the end we will see that Science and Bible go hand in hand as we learn more about both. In the grand scheme of things we know soooooo little about both.
              Battlefield Samurai 'Banzaaaiii!!!

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              • #8
                Re: Evolution from one species to another

                Originally posted by Hitchins View Post
                Wow, one hostile response, and one sarcastic. Was I naive in expecting to get a real response?

                Chris, I don't know why you're being so hostile to me. You could have linked to your favorite book on the subject instead.

                Tempus, I agree with inter-species evolution, I was looking for evolving from one species to another.
                I was being serious in my first post, not sarcastic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Evolution from one species to another

                  Evolution == change in gene frequencies within populations over time
                  Speciation == the processes by which new species arise

                  Every birth, death, mutation, etc., is evolution since they affect the frequencies of genes within a population. This is a fact. It is also a fact that individuals in a population are subject to natural selection, genetic drift, and gene flow at population-level.

                  Thus, evolution is both a fact and a theory (a model for describing observed behaviors, backed up by a lot of experiments and/or data). The theory unites facts in an attempt to explain the processes by which evolution occurs.

                  We must also define what a 'species' is. There are several definitions; here are the most common ones I've encountered:

                  biological species concept (BSC): Reproductive isolation; individuals are considered to be members of a particular species if they can interbreed.
                  phylogenetic species concept (PSC): Terminal nodes on a phylogenetic tree; a species is a “tip” on a phylogeny, that is, the smallest set of organisms that share an ancestor and can be distinguished from other such sets.

                  There are many gray areas in which it's difficult to define whether individuals are distinct species.

                  An example scenario: Butterfly Population A (BPA) breeds only during winter. Butterfly Population B (BPB) breeds only during the summer. Both populations inhabit the same area, eat the same food, and are capable of interbreeding, but it never happens in the wild. Are they the same or different species?

                  Another example:
                  A-----------B------------C-----------D
                  A, B, C, and D are populations of salamanders. A can interbreed with B, B with both A and C, C with both B and D, and D with C. How do we classify these as species? What if A could interbreed with D? This is a known as a "ring species". More details on this example can be found here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/li.../l_052_05.html

                  "Darwinism" is a term that is not used in modern studies, and does not refer the the modern theories of evolution. Remember that when Darwin first proposed a theory of evolution, the field of genetics was unknown. It wasn't until 1943 that DNA was identified as the molecule responsible for heredity, 1953 that the structure of DNA was discovered, and 1957 that the relationship between DNA, RNA, and proteins was discovered (biology's central dogma). Modern biology is based upon evolution and genetics in particular -- with every organism's genome being the raw data in which we track how [homologous] genes change over timel.

                  Here are a few good primers on evolution:
                  http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...nceptions.html
                  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

                  Observed speciation:
                  Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in lab
                  Cichlid speciation

                  I'm sure you can find many more on google. Try scholar.google.com for science articles.



                  TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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                  • #10
                    Re: Evolution from one species to another

                    Mentholated, my apologies, the winged cat led me to the conclusion that you were sarcastic.

                    AMosely, interesting thoughts, and thinking of time like that was perfect for what Fenix posted.

                    Fenix, thank you very much for the link. I now know that Macroevolution is the term I was looking for, not Darwinism.

                    Perhaps someone can point me to where the fossil record or other hard evidence supports Macroevolution? The world being 3.8 billion years old, I'd expect to see much more fossil evidence of failed species, transitional species, etc.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Evolution from one species to another

                      Originally posted by Hitchins View Post
                      Tempus, I agree with inter-species evolution, I was looking for evolving from one species to another.
                      Like what? A moose evolving into a snake? :icon_eek:

                      Evolution is gradual.... Until 'suddenly' fish start growing legs and walking on land. These could be considered mutations. But since they are good mutations (evolutionarily speaking), they help the species survive. Eventually, enough of a species has changed so that they're not considered the same species anymore.

                      I assume you are talking about humans and apes and all that. Keep in mind how similar we are genetically, and it's not hard to think of us all as practically the same species, but with some evolutionary mutations that allows one of us to be smarter than the other.

                      3) Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Evolution from one species to another

                        Tempus hit the nail on the head when talking about antibiotic resistant/immune bacteria. It is, in effect, darwinism. But it is also evolution. Survival of the fittest spurred by a spontaneous evolutionary response to environmental factors. Put simply, bacterial colonies have memory, as does the genetic structure of any organism. If you introduce change factors into the environment, after X number of generations, spontaneous mutations will occur in response. Some will be effective, others will not. Those organisms within the group that possess the winning traits will survive and flourish. For more information on these bacteria, please read about it. Insofar as your search goes in looking from evolution from one species to another, this fits. Do a bit of research on pseudomonas and the spontaneous mutation from various species within the genus pseudomonas to the species pseudomonas aeruginosa after the prolonged introduction of antibacterial agents to a colony.

                        Also, in relation to humans more directly: note the increase in average height over the last couple hundred years. Average male human height in the UK in 1800 was 172.9 CM. In 1950, it was 177.2 CM. In the middle ages it was around 160 CM. During the renaissance, it was closer to 170 CM. These fluctuations have been scientifically tied to quality of life during these times. The more agrarian the culture (meaning more farm-type work, which is typically low to the ground), the shorter the average height. Coincidence or evolutionary adaptation?

                        In order to understand the transition I assume youre looking for (as tempus said: apes to men), you can see the obvious diversion by viewing this:
                        http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...taxonomy_7.svg
                        Chimpanzees belong to genus Pan, while humans belong to genus Homo, which are divergent at the taxonomic tribal level. Subsequent to that, under genus Homo, you have species Australopithecus, Habilis, Erectus, and Sapien, all of which share enough genetic similarity and separation in temporal appearance that evolution (which cannot be observed through extinct species) has been widely accepted as truth. Put simply, homo sapiens (humans) and chimpanzees are separated by less than 6% DNA divergence. Humans and Homo Erectus, for example, are separated by less than 0.1% DNA divergence.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Evolution from one species to another

                          Tau_centrino, very thought provoking, and it helped to fill in some of the thought processes regarding evolution that I was missing.

                          Chris, I'm not writing a paper on this, or I would have started at the library. Your comments aren't helpful. If you'd like to add to the topic, please do.

                          I'll keep researching, but at least now I understand the theories better. I was hoping there was some hard evidence proving the theories, instead of relying on faith to believe that gene mutations and speciation have resulted in humanity's existence.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Evolution from one species to another

                            Originally posted by Hitchins View Post
                            I'll keep researching, but at least now I understand the theories better. I was hoping there was some hard evidence proving the theories, instead of relying on faith to believe that gene mutations and speciation have resulted in humanity's existence.
                            Not to be hostile, but isn't saying some entity created us is also reliant on faith. Unless i look at my foot and it says "Made By God" I don't see any hard evidence that creationism is the answer.

                            Sure the bible is a great read to even those who aren't religious, it has morals and stories that make for good entertainment.
                            |TG-6th|SirNerd

                            My Resume includes Pirate, Mercenary, and a Devil Dog, what else do you want.

                            Pain is Inevitable, Suffering is Optional.

                            When you can't run anymore, you crawl and when you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Evolution from one species to another

                              Hitchins, what you are asking for is impossible, as the evolutionary path to human beings has caused all of the prior species to be extinct. That is darwinism. When two evolutionary divergent species exist in the same survival-based environment, one will eventually become extinct and the other will flourish. That is exactly what happened with all species prior to H. Sapiens. We survived due to genetic adaptation, they did not.

                              The best hard evidence you can get is what I provided to you regarding bacteria.

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