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Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

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  • Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

    I'm a visual person, and I like seeing/learning from things graphically more than reading them in long paragraphs. So today, I'm catching up on Gizmodo.com and found this post:

    Death and Taxes Shows Fascinating, Terrible View on Military Tech Spending

    So when you click on the link there, it takes you here:
    http://www.zoomorama.com/JBachman/92...a159fe23ac88c9

    Now for the cool stuff. Click the little icon in the top right to go to full screen mode, and then try not to spend the next hour or so like I did poring over every piece. I love the layout, as well as the tech used to present it in fullscreen.

    Now it's time for the rant...............
    I like money, who doesn't? Do I like giving my money up and not buying a new 50" LCD instead. Of course. But guess what. America is one of the greatest countries on earth, and it got that way only because people all have to pitch in for the common good. Road and other infastructure gets built with tax money. Schools get build and kept up with tax money. My dirty trash gets picked up with tax money. God, I could go on all day here.

    Point is, I'm sick and tired with all the political crap going on right now hearing about people complaining about taxes. If you don't like them, go live in a **** 3rd world country that doesn't have any of the things our tax money pays for, and see how long it takes to be wishing you were paying taxes. What really set me off on this was yesterday, a guy at a McCain rally was complaining about why should he have to pay for things like Education Dept., since he doesn't have kids. And he doesn't go to parks so he shouldn't have to pay for them. Are these people brain dead????? :icon_mad:

    America got to be great because our kids get to go to school and don't grow up dumb as a box of rocks. He benifited from a tax supported school I'm sure, so why does he think he shouldn't have to help pay. Everyone benifits from better schools, even if they don't have kids. It helps kids to grow up to be better doctors for when they get sick, or better architects so the house they buy doesn't fall down. Another list that goes on and on. Yet we spend next to nothing on edu. compared to something like the defense budget.

    Again with the visual learning, watch this video:
    U.S. Defense Budget, Explained with OREO Cookies

    I'm not saying I support the people that made the video or anything, I'm just saying use it to get a clue about where our money goes.


    But back to the subject that got this rolling. I actually used to like McCain, and even talked to my wife about voting for him back before the primaries, before he flip flopped on everything he used to stand for.

    So then he gets up and goes mad dog attack in his debates. He likes to talk none stop about how Oboma would raise taxes......even though he never finishes the sentence to go on and say the part about raising taxes only if you net $250k a year, not gross $250k a year. Lets me honest. How many TG guys net that much in a year? The news media even dug into Joe the Plumber's history, and turns out his taxes wouldn't go up any. Looks like Joe turned out to be just another uninformed voter, among other things they turned up on the guy.

    But then McCain keeps talking about how he is going to fix education (something in case you haven't noticed I care a lot about, even though I don't have kids). He also talks all about children with special needs, and how he cares about them because of Palin, and they are going to find a cure while he's president. Guess what people. That is going to cost a LOT of money. But he is going to cut taxes across the board as well. But the Gov. is going more and more in debt every year.

    WHERE IS THIS MAGIC MONEY GOING TO COME FROM??????????

    Taxes. Hell no I don't like paying them. But they are a necessary evil if we want to continue to be one of the greatest countries in the world. You want to be a true patriot? Stand up and be proud you pay taxes. Brag to people that you pay all your taxes because you like the roads not full of potholes, and the local college enrollment is way up, and you don't have to shake your fist at the ceiling because the power won't stay on.

    This concept does apply to other countries as well. A Canadian buddy of mine was complaining about taxes up north the other day, so I know this thread is relevant to pretty much everyone reading this forum.


    LINKS

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    Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

    -Carlos A. Urbizo-


  • #2
    Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

    (EDIT: Oh..and that Pic link would make a cool poster!! Thanks Bamboo for that!
    Edit Again: They do have a poster!! -- I noticed it was incomplete tho.. There is no "Spending on Congressional Suck up Bull****/get me re-elected projects?)

    If you want to say "God Bless America" ..just talk to one of our Eurpoean TG Brothers and ask..how much for a gallon (liter..) of gas? How Much for a Gallon (?) of milk... or as Panzerhans and I talked about one Morning in ARMA ..how much for a Delivery Pizza.. WAY MORE.. Why.,..cause their tax rate is WAY more.. not that their Lifestyle is worse... For example all Panzer does is go on Holiday.. ( just kidding.. but seems like he does that alot!) where most Americans take a week a year and work their 40-60 hours a week..

    As for taxes though.. Time for a Change in the system.. It SHOULD NOT MATTER HOW MUCH YOU MAKE A YEAR... I can equate $$ with SUCCESS (if that's the easiest yard stick to measure by)..and I can assume that the one who makes the most $$ worked his/her tail off to do it.. There are exceptions...but you know those billionaires don't spend alot of time NOT thinking about work or thier money or how to make their next Billion. We need a complete overhaul of the tax system.. I am for a FLAT Tax or a National Sales/Consumption TAX.. Isn't that what the VAT is like in Europe? You make more you buy more expensive stuff and you get taxed more.. No big loopholes... no angles etc.. I was talking to a recruiter for the IRS the other day and was told they are going to hire over 600 more agents in the next few years. Talking about a window into our future.. YuK!!

    Geez..where am I going with this..? HUCKABEE for President!!
    |TG|ARMA Pathfinder
    ..now where did I put my keys?

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    • #3
      Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

      Originally posted by Bamboo View Post
      He likes to talk none stop about how Oboma would raise taxes......even though he never finishes the sentence to go on and say the part about raising taxes only if you net $250k a year, not gross $250k a year. Lets me honest. How many TG guys net that much in a year? The news media even dug into Joe the Plumber's history, and turns out his taxes wouldn't go up any. Looks like Joe turned out to be just another uninformed voter, among other things they turned up on the guy.
      First of all, Joe the Plumber was talking about buying a business where he might make over $250k a year, but that doesn't matter.

      What matters is your ignorance of the big picture. Sure, it would be nice to let the rich people/businesses pay all of our taxes for us. There are two MAJOR problems with this.

      The first is that there will be less of an incentive to be rich. If rich people pay more taxes and the "middle class" pays less taxes, then there must be a point in between at which you begin to see diminishing returns on your hard work. This is a simple fact. How much of an impact this lack of incentive really has on people is certainly arguable, but it's certainly there. Why would a couple of people want to get together and take the risk of starting a business if they can just keep plugging along as simple workers paying less taxes?

      The second problem is a much bigger problem. If rich people/businesses have their taxes increased, that leaves them with less money to employ non-rich people. Is it still cool that you and 20 coworkers pay 10% less taxes if one of you has to get laid off? If you're the one I bet it's not cool anymore...

      But go ahead and keep thinking of rich people as evil things that must be punished. This country is going to hell anyway...
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      • #4
        Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

        Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
        First of all, Joe the Plumber was talking about buying a business where he might make over $250k a year, but that doesn't matter.

        What matters is your ignorance of the big picture. Sure, it would be nice to let the rich people/businesses pay all of our taxes for us. There are two MAJOR problems with this.

        The first is that there will be less of an incentive to be rich. If rich people pay more taxes and the "middle class" pays less taxes, then there must be a point in between at which you begin to see diminishing returns on your hard work. This is a simple fact. How much of an impact this lack of incentive really has on people is certainly arguable, but it's certainly there. Why would a couple of people want to get together and take the risk of starting a business if they can just keep plugging along as simple workers paying less taxes?

        The second problem is a much bigger problem. If rich people/businesses have their taxes increased, that leaves them with less money to employ non-rich people. Is it still cool that you and 20 coworkers pay 10% less taxes if one of you has to get laid off? If you're the one I bet it's not cool anymore...

        But go ahead and keep thinking of rich people as evil things that must be punished. This country is going to hell anyway...
        There is a third problem. We are all free to move to another country, like the Bahamas, (a nation inside) the EU, etc. who have lower taxes. When you jack up taxes on wealth and business here it makes doing business there more attractive and may wind up hurting terribly the very people you're trying to help.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

          Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
          The first is that there will be less of an incentive to be rich. If rich people pay more taxes and the "middle class" pays less taxes, then there must be a point in between at which you begin to see diminishing returns on your hard work. This is a simple fact. How much of an impact this lack of incentive really has on people is certainly arguable, but it's certainly there. Why would a couple of people want to get together and take the risk of starting a business if they can just keep plugging along as simple workers paying less taxes?

          The second problem is a much bigger problem. If rich people/businesses have their taxes increased, that leaves them with less money to employ non-rich people. Is it still cool that you and 20 coworkers pay 10% less taxes if one of you has to get laid off? If you're the one I bet it's not cool anymore...

          But go ahead and keep thinking of rich people as evil things that must be punished. This country is going to hell anyway...
          Even in countries with tax rates exceeding 50% you got plenty of people trying to get rich. At a certain point it is purely ego driven activity and the ego will drive these individuals even if they have to give up most of it to the government. After all 1/2 of 200 million is still 100 million.

          And, as Adam Smith said, the Wealth of a Nation is not found in paper and metal.

          Employers are going to pay employees only as much as they have too. They would be stupid to do otherwise. So if I am working well at 30k per year the employer will still pay me 30k a year even if the government cuts the employers taxes to zero.

          And the employer, if they are a good employer, will only hire the number of employees needed to get the job done. They are not going to hire extras just because they have extra cash.

          I do agree that taxes can be negative if they are two high. Going from 36 to 39% probably isn't going to be negative. Raising them in the middle of a recession is not a good idea. I would actually cut taxes right now. But as soon as the recession is over? Raise them.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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          • #6
            Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

            Originally posted by leejo View Post
            There is a third problem. We are all free to move to another country, like the Bahamas, (a nation inside) the EU, etc. who have lower taxes. When you jack up taxes on wealth and business here it makes doing business there more attractive and may wind up hurting terribly the very people you're trying to help.
            This is a worry and some people and companies do this. But, unless they are doing this as a tax evasion move, they will suffer consequences of not being a US citizen or corporation.

            So it is a trade off on both sides.
            Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

              Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
              First of all, Joe the Plumber was talking about buying a business where he might make over $250k a year, but that doesn't matter.

              What matters is your ignorance of the big picture. Sure, it would be nice to let the rich people/businesses pay all of our taxes for us. There are two MAJOR problems with this.

              The first is that there will be less of an incentive to be rich. If rich people pay more taxes and the "middle class" pays less taxes, then there must be a point in between at which you begin to see diminishing returns on your hard work. This is a simple fact. How much of an impact this lack of incentive really has on people is certainly arguable, but it's certainly there. Why would a couple of people want to get together and take the risk of starting a business if they can just keep plugging along as simple workers paying less taxes?

              The second problem is a much bigger problem. If rich people/businesses have their taxes increased, that leaves them with less money to employ non-rich people. Is it still cool that you and 20 coworkers pay 10% less taxes if one of you has to get laid off? If you're the one I bet it's not cool anymore...

              But go ahead and keep thinking of rich people as evil things that must be punished. This country is going to hell anyway...
              Ouch Cingular :row__633:

              I never called rich people evil, but a lot of them keep getting richer because as pointed out above, there are so many loop holes and ways to get out of paying, that a lot of people that make 5 times what I do end up paying less in taxes.

              And Obama's plan would only return the rate for those over 250k to the same it was during Clinton. Does anyone else remember how well the national debt was getting paid down during that time. Since then, after the Bush tax cuts, how's the debt looking now. Just out the tax poster above for more details.

              But you are right about there being a bit of an odd balance point no man's land, but do you really think people arn't going to keep trying to make more money? If they are working hard enough to pull in $250k+, you don't think they are going to keep going to get more? For example, back in college when I worked at a grocery store and was broke, I got a week's paid vacation a year. But I never took it off. I put in for the vacation, but kept working. I took a huge tax hit on that paycheck, making no where near the real amount after taxes, but it was still extra money so I did it anyway every year.

              And the way it is set up now, with different tax brackets, if what you say is true, everyone would be asking their employer for less money so they wouldn't go over a certain limit. Have you ever heard of someone asking for less in a pay raise.

              And I never said anything about making the rich pay all our taxes for us. I said the exact opposite. I was saying everyone should be happy to pay their taxes and do their part.

              I think you should reread my post man. It seems like you are replying to something different than I said.

              LINKS

              * *


              Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.

              -Carlos A. Urbizo-

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                Originally posted by Bamboo View Post
                If they are working hard enough to pull in $250k+, you don't think they are going to keep going to get more?
                C'mon, man, think. Big picture. Don't think about individuals. Sure most people that make $250k will want to make more, but what if right now 5% have no higher aspirations? They're happy where they are. If you increase the tax rate for people making above $250k, don't you think the percentage that aspire to make above $250k will drop? Now you've got 15% of people making $250k that are happy right where they're at, and that will take no efforts, no risks to try to make more.

                Your problem is that you're trying to think of the US economy in terms of you. Not everyone is like you. You need to think of the US economy in terms of the US.
                Become a supporting member!
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                • #9
                  Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                  It's not about whether or not one wants to make more, it's simple math.

                  When the price of gas goes up everyone seems to understand that it slows the economy and impairs businesses' ability to grow and create jobs. And yet for some reason people seem to think that if the added expense is a tax bill, businesses will magically just suck it up and keep growing/hiring. A income or expense dollar is a dollar is a dollar as far as the balance sheet knows. The only number that matters to it is the net profit, and when that number shrinks, business gets cautious.

                  Every business owner I've talked to mentions the same rough-guess timeline - it takes at least 6 months to break even on a new hire. That means that for 1/2 a year for every new employee, the business makes an investment and accepts risk. When you make business more risk-averse, they hire fewer people.

                  All y'all college kids who are so excited about the coming change are in for a very rude surprise when you graduate. A lot of you are going to struggle to find work. A lot of you younger people are going to lose your jobs. If you want to add fuel to the fire by creating an additional tax burden on the businesses you hope will hire you, then you truly deserve to get what you want hard and fast, and the world will definitely deliver.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                    Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                    If you increase the tax rate for people making above $250k, don't you think the percentage that aspire to make above $250k will drop? Now you've got 15% of people making $250k that are happy right where they're at, and that will take no efforts, no risks to try to make more.

                    Your problem is that you're trying to think of the US economy in terms of you. Not everyone is like you. You need to think of the US economy in terms of the US.
                    Even if 100% aspire to make 250k only about 2% will make above that much. I see no evidence that those making significantly less will modify their behavior in the least if the tax rate for those make > 250k goes up a few percentage points.

                    @Leejo

                    Your gas analogy

                    Lets assume gas is $1/gal.

                    For most people the price goes down to $.90/gal.

                    For some it goes up to $1.05/gal.

                    And for a very few it goes up to $1.12/gal. Are these people actually going to be loosing this money? Not all of it because the majority of people now have extra money to spend on these peoples goods.

                    Plus if gas was under priced to begin with the extra twenty cents a gallon would have minimal impact.

                    So. If tax cuts are going to the bottom 85% of the population then that population will have more money to spend. The bottom income earners also tend to actually spend the extra money coming in. Will that extra spending overcome the businesses extra taxes in the form of new sales?

                    Most businesses will have less money to invest and this investment is important, but it isn't the only important thing.
                    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                      Gringo, if you want to argue that increasing fuel and commodity prices don't impair business and slow growth and hiring, I don't know that we really have much to discuss. I read financial statements every day and work with executives to provide them with the information they want to make informed decisions, and I cannot assure you in any stronger terms that when expenses go up - for whatever reason - it impacts the balance sheet and cash flows and businesses tighten up.

                      Even if revenues also go up, the business then becomes concerned that they aren't doing an adequate job converting income to retained earnings, and they will go on a cost-cutting campaign. It's just how it works.

                      EDIT: I don't mean to suggest that increasing a tax is a necessarily bad thing, long term. I personally believe it is so, but I also think that if the marginal tax rate goes up a tick or two, eventually business will adjust to the new risk environment and we will move along. I am certain that in the meantime, absent some external stimulus like the rapid expansion of technology that occurred in the 90s, there will be an adjustment period during which we can expect higher unemployment and slower growth.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                        Originally posted by leejo View Post
                        Gringo, if you want to argue that increasing fuel and commodity prices don't impair business and slow growth and hiring, I don't know that we really have much to discuss. I read financial statements every day and work with executives to provide them with the information they want to make informed decisions, and I cannot assure you in any stronger terms that when expenses go up - for whatever reason - it impacts the balance sheet and cash flows and businesses tighten up.

                        Even if revenues also go up, the business then becomes concerned that they aren't doing an adequate job converting income to retained earnings, and they will go on a cost-cutting campaign. It's just how it works.
                        I didn't say it didn't affect it. I said there is a bigger picture out there. While one business will be negatively affected other business can benefit from their loss.

                        As far as energy prices go. I am no expert. But I do remember when oil started at about $28/bbl and it started going up in price. Many of the conservatives I read at the time said that the increase would not hurt the overall economy very much at all. Once it got above $75-80/bbl the mood changed a bit but even then I don't remember the economists saying the world would end.

                        And if you look at my numbers that average price went down.

                        Plus, we weren't really talking about commodities, where we? We where talking about taxes and you used commodities as an analogy.*

                        Businesses tightening up does not necessarily mean that the overall economy is affected negatively. All kinds of factors come into play. Some of the workers laid off, if any are in fact laid off, will see that there is still demand not being met. Some will start a small business to capture that unmet demand and it will also benefit from the lower taxes because it is a smaller business.

                        As well, that extra expense is going somewhere. It isn't just disappearing. Those dollars are being transferred to some other placed and used there instead.

                        I am just saying it is not as clear cut as you would portray it.

                        *You have a habbit of doing that. Ignoring the general discussion and nit picking.
                        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                          Plus, we weren't really talking about commodities, where we? We where talking about taxes and you used commodities as an analogy.*

                          <snip>*You have a habbit of doing that. Ignoring the general discussion and nit picking.
                          I think you have a hobbit of misunderstanding me a lot. What I said is that increasing expenses, regardless of whether that expense is an increased commodity price or an increased tax bill, tightens business exactly the same way. I used the example of oil because for the last year folks have been running around saying oh noes Exxon is stealing all our money and hurting the economy, and these same people seem to be under the impression that taxes hit the balance sheet and cash flows in some other magical way that doesn't hurt the economy.

                          But the point, and I believe I was clear, is that an increased tax bill and an increased gas bill affect business exactly the same way.

                          Income statements have income line items and expense line items, the sum of which give us the proverbial "bottom line" - net income. Net income is a part of the balance sheet on the liabilities and equity side of the sheet. Net income is also the top line of an indirect cash flow statement, and the cash portions of income and expense line items form a cash flow using the direct method.

                          So when you increase expenses, you shrink the balance sheet and impair the cash flows. This cascades and causes further drops in all the statements and businesses start laying people off.

                          Businesses tightening up does not necessarily mean that the overall economy is affected negatively. All kinds of factors come into play. Some of the workers laid off, if any are in fact laid off, will see that there is still demand not being met. Some will start a small business to capture that unmet demand and it will also benefit from the lower taxes because it is a smaller business.

                          As well, that extra expense is going somewhere. It isn't just disappearing. Those dollars are being transferred to some other placed and used there instead.

                          I am just saying it is not as clear cut as you would portray it.
                          You are about to get a very good education on how wrong you are. When business tighten up, it SUUUUUUUCKS. Check back in a year.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                            If some taxes are good, then more taxes are better, and a 100% tax must be best of all.

                            It doesn't matter if people stop wanting to start businesses. The government will have all the money, so it can be the sole employer and business.

                            Government of course always knows how best to spend the money, and greedy private individuals always make worse investing decisions, so they shouldn't have that money in the first place, and government should take it all.

                            Exercise: Find all the wrong assumptions in the above.
                            Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                            snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                            Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                            • #15
                              Re: Death and Taxes.... Looking at where tax money goes

                              Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                              If some taxes are good, then more taxes are better, and a 100% tax must be best of all.

                              It doesn't matter if people stop wanting to start businesses. The government will have all the money, so it can be the sole employer and business.

                              Government of course always knows how best to spend the money, and greedy private individuals always make worse investing decisions, so they shouldn't have that money in the first place, and government should take it all.

                              Exercise: Find all the wrong assumptions in the above.
                              Comrade, you have a Kool Aid stain your shirt but now you are beginning to understand how the revo...... i mean..change will happen and it will benefit all people, except those that it doesn't it that will be because they do not support the states effort but after a suitable period of re-education they too will be allowed to enjoy the benefits the state will provide.
                              Pravda !

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