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  • Afraid of gun control now? (was: read and reply.)

    Gun control is a multifaceted, controversial issue currently in the United States. A newly elected president and a change of the guard only re-energizes gun control debates in certain circles. The legislation surrounding the decisive restrictions on obtaining, possession and concealment of firearms has been openly praised as well as shunned. The United States constitution guarantees an American citizen the right to non-infringed right to weaponry. A gun is a tool, intent is determined by the user.


    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.Ē (U.S Constitution) This single statement is used as the base for anti-gun control ideology. The literal interpretation of the Second Amendment is fundamentally one of the rights given to all free citizens of America. In 1994 The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, passed by Congress, banned the sale of new assault weapons.
    Did the congress read the last words of the second amendment?
    Criminals commit crimes with the use of guns and it infringes on the national right of the innocent individual to possess and carry guns when they are caught it in the cross fire of legislation aimed at keeping dangerous weaponsí out of degenerate hands. In other words certain legislation aimed at restricting gun trade keeps criminals from obtaining guns but it also keeps the free man from his right. This is no way to conduct due processes of law it remains unfair to the good upstanding citizen who has the right to protect with autonomy .A gun is a mere tool that can be used for good or evil. Our country is based on the belief that man is good until he or she is proven to be otherwise. This means that only a few people are committing crimes with uses of guns and why completely remove or restrict them from society. Therefore, we should strenuously protect the rights of free men and likewise prosecute and punish the criminals who abuse the rights of others.


    Gun laws and loosing restrictions have a direct influence on crime rates including homicide rates. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.
    The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons (guncite. com). In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry-and-conceal states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns. Opposition argues that in a world where everyone has a gun or the potential to own a gun that a general escalation of crime would happen. Governments that have completely denied the average citizen to carry and or own a gun have primarily been totalitarian in nature. Ask the experts Adolf Hitler, Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse-tung and Kim Jong-il they all agree that gun control directly affects crime and homicide rates.


    Bills should be pushed to make it easier for a person to carry a gun if he or she so desires in order, to protect him or herself or perhaps enforce the law. It has been proven time and time again that the more rights of citizens to have firearms, results in a reduction of the crime rate. A perfect example of this is Florida...In 1987 congress passed legislation that allowed an ordinary citizen with no mental problems or crime record to carry a concealed firearm. Here are the results of their crime rates from 1987-1996...Homicide rate-36%,Firearm homicide rate-37%,Handgun homicide rate-41%
    As well as the murder rates going down, the 222,000 people in Florida with a concealed-weapon permit...not one has ever shot a police officer or has been arrested for murder. There have been many instances where a permit holder protected a police officer.

    .
    This is also similar, statistically, for every other state that has enacted a similar law since 1987.
    (http://www. justfacts. com/guncontrol. asp ).


    Next, the argument uses England as a prime example of proper gun restriction due to their legislation. England is thought to be so much safer from gun crimes that the US because of directly prohibiting guns. This has very little truth. Their murder rate is considerably lower than ours, however since 2001, their robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft has been higher than ours...and it is getting higher every year. Since 1990, basically every crime type (robbery, murder, aggravated assault) has been going down in the US and has been going up in Britain. And it has continued to go up even after their strict laws on guns started.
    (www. justfacts. com)

    Many advocates for gun control stab for the heart and offer the atrocities of columbine and subsequent school shootings. To prevent another disastrous school shooting. We should allow a well-trained teacher to keep a weapon on his person at all times. This would allow the school to stop a killer before he kills a lot of students. And since the weapon would be concealed and hidden away inside the teacherís shirt, any student who wanted to go on a killing spree wouldnít know the teacher has a gun. This knowledge of a possible armed teacher in its self could subdue another possible incident.


    Our age is one of danger the possibilities of some armed assault are only growing. If one does not like the idea of a criminal having a gun and using its potential deadly force against a person, is it not better to learn how to be a better shot than the assailant. In sort it is better to exercise an individual constitutional right and own and carry a gun with fewer restrictions than to be with out said gun and at the hands of those whom would harm you. The legislative processes of restricting fire arms is a sick form of control and will only end in less freedoms.
    the avatar is not me, its my favorite singer.

  • #2
    Re: read and reply.

    Those stats you supply, where did they come from?

    Even if they are correct they only show a correlation, not causation. In recent years violent crimes have been going up even with the decrease in firearm regulation.

    Also, the years you show for the decrease in crimes was also a time of assault weapon bans and the like.

    I am not arguing with your main point. I argue with the so called science behind the argument. The fact is there isn't much convincing evidence to support your claim that more guns causes a reduction in crime, especially the violent kind. It is a problem with all social sciences. Incomplete and inaccurate data. Variables not controlled for. Lack of understanding regarding basic human behavior. Inability of those studying the field to understand the cultural differences in a country as diverse as America.

    The studies I have seen are not complete and every one has flaws pointed out by other researchers. None have been replicated.

    So if you believe that guns reduce crime then it is nothing but a belief. One you are welcomed to, of course. But don't delude yourself into also believing there is any kind of proof for your beliefs.

    BTW, I believe (yes believe) that guns neither solve nor create social problems. At best the exacerbate or mitigate the problems for individuals within the society. Thinking guns alone will reduce crimes is a silver bullet thinking that ultimately will fail.
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: read and reply.

      woot, someones oppinion left wing style :D
      the avatar is not me, its my favorite singer.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: read and reply.

        Can you cite the studies that debunk the theory that where concealed carry laws are passed, crime is reduced.
        In that area.
        Because crime has gone down for many reasons nationwide just as it spikes up in places for many reasons.
        The most dangerous cities in America are the ones with the most restrictive guns laws and the safest are the ones with the most liberal guns laws.
        As you mentioned, there are variables, like I don't think any large city has concealed carry laws like smaller towns.
        Abortion is also a huge variable in crime as it has been said that an entire generation of criminals was aborted, 20-30 years ago and so the last 10 years of lower crime has that element to consider.
        The assault weapons ban lowered crime ?
        I know people with full auto AKs, only one of which I have actually seen and moved the selector lever on but they are still out there.
        Not really the most convenient weapon to carry around and I don't have the stats handy but I would bet that assault weapons, pre or post ban, accounted for only a tiny percentage of gun crimes.
        You want to take guns off the street ?
        Buy them.
        The market applies to illegal activities as well.
        Send undercovers out and buy guns on the street, and pay top dollar for them.
        Pretty soon a junk .25 auto that used to sell for $100 is now $1000 and out of reach of most street criminals, who don't have a lot of money for the most part.
        That will result in some increase in petty crime in the short term as people try new ways to raise money for weapons but in today's age of surveillance, we will catch them quicker.
        You won't eliminate guns, but you will ruin the market for cheap guns and since most gun crimes are crimes of passion, if you don't have it at the time, you won't save up for Christmas to get it.
        It might even teach the young punks to fight with their hands again.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: read and reply.

          Originally posted by j.barker View Post
          woot, someones oppinion left wing style :D
          Left wing? Back up that statement if you can.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: read and reply.

            Originally posted by j.barker View Post
            Gun control is a multifaceted, controversial issue currently in the United States. A newly elected president and a change of the guard only re-energizes gun control debates in certain circles.
            Only in the small circle of people who enjoy collecting weapons they do not need. No one is ever, ever going to take away the right to own a weapon for hunting or sport. The types of gun legislation being considered by politicians only adversely effects gun enthusiasts and those who own guns simply because they can.

            Originally posted by j.barker
            Our age is one of danger the possibilities of some armed assault are only growing.
            This is a deeply opinionated and flawed argument. Statistically, our age is getting less dangerous and the possibilities of 'some armed assault' are as well. The right to bear arms was clearly written in the days of American independence from an imperial society that specifically banned it. The world has changed, the laws need to change with it.

            The country as a whole needs to work on de-polarizing this issue and arrive at gun laws that better match the society we live in. This is going to happen over time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: read and reply.

              Originally posted by AMosely View Post
              Only in the small circle of people who enjoy collecting weapons they do not need. No one is ever, ever going to take away the right to own a weapon for hunting or sport. The types of gun legislation being considered by politicians only adversely effects gun enthusiasts and those who own guns simply because they can.
              And those intended for self defense. No one has a right to that, when it might injure a poor criminal.

              The right to bear arms was clearly written in the days of American independence from an imperial society that specifically banned it. The world has changed, the laws need to change with it.
              Yep, as the world grows ever more imperial, we need to protect those who want empire. Of course, today's Red Coats have far superior firepower that mere serfs aren't allowed to possess anyway, so one might as well take away the rest of their tools for defense. It's not like the popguns we own could be used to hold off a concerted effort at despotism. Especially when the despots are freely handing out bread and circuses and undermining any desire for liberty.
              Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

              snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

              Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: read and reply.

                I curious (yes, genuinely curious) how the "Well regulated militia" portion of the 2nd amendment has been interpreted, alongside the right to keep and bear arms part?

                The Virgina declaration of rights contained this:

                That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.
                Commonly thought to be where the language for the 2nd amendment came from.

                Maybe it's just me, but that kind of sounds like "keep a well trained, well armed, large group of citizen ready to keep the peace".

                I'm not anti gun at all, about the only thing I favor are strong background checks, but, I'm curious as to how something seemingly aimed at creating a "strong civilian security force" (oh my!!) ended up being me having unfettered access to assault weapons with no responsibilities attached?
                Do or do not, there is no try....
                -- Yoda, Dagobah

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: read and reply.

                  You know what I find interesting about all these gun control topics, no one mentions bullets.

                  And what i find interesting is how there has been no bill or lobby which includes bullets for the most part, yes I am for getting so called "cop killer" bullets off the market, but wouldn't it be smart by the NRA when lobbying against or introducing a bill, or if you are against guns, that you would include the sale of guns but the restriction of the sale of bullets/shotgun shells.

                  With everything going on, I think if i can save up some money I might purchase my first fire arm, I'd like to purchase a pistol, but then again the thought of purposing a semi-automatic M4 would be beneficial and seems very interesting to me.
                  ww.thisoldhouse.com/toh/

                  ww.bobross.com/ - RIP Bob, we all still miss you!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: read and reply.

                    Originally posted by gunjunkie View Post
                    I curious (yes, genuinely curious) how the "Well regulated militia" portion of the 2nd amendment has been interpreted, alongside the right to keep and bear arms part?

                    The Virgina declaration of rights contained this:



                    Commonly thought to be where the language for the 2nd amendment came from.

                    Maybe it's just me, but that kind of sounds like "keep a well trained, well armed, large group of citizen ready to keep the peace".

                    I'm not anti gun at all, about the only thing I favor are strong background checks, but, I'm curious as to how something seemingly aimed at creating a "strong civilian security force" (oh my!!) ended up being me having unfettered access to assault weapons with no responsibilities attached?
                    I agree. Many on the pro-gun side kinda choose to leave this part out or consider it a separate issue. But so did some of the SCOTUS justices in the Heller case.

                    There is a pretty good discussion among some of us TGers regarding this issue.
                    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: read and reply.

                      Originally posted by Bob_Vila View Post
                      And what i find interesting is how there has been no bill or lobby which includes bullets for the most part, yes I am for getting so called "cop killer" bullets off the market, but wouldn't it be smart by the NRA when lobbying against or introducing a bill, or if you are against guns, that you would include the sale of guns but the restriction of the sale of bullets/shotgun shells.
                      There are laws restricting/regulating certain ammunition purchases.

                      But you are right, most target the firearm itself. Which goes to show, IMO, that most of these laws are primarily emotional responses to fear. I don't like those kind of laws.
                      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: read and reply.

                        Thank you gringo, hmmmm maybe i could send/create a petition restricting the amount of 9mm bullets purchased every 6 months and restricting the purchase of .50 cal and 7.62 caliber bullets unless given a federal license.

                        Though i would have to do some research especially with the caliber of bullets that most hunting rifles contain (along with shotgun shells).

                        The below picture though is one of the many reasons why the right to bear arms is such a hot topic, especially since it exploits the root of the right to bear arms

                        ww.thisoldhouse.com/toh/

                        ww.bobross.com/ - RIP Bob, we all still miss you!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: read and reply.

                          Originally posted by gunjunkie View Post
                          having unfettered access to assault weapons with no responsibilities attached?
                          It's a question of abuse. Who watches the watchers? The presumption is that the citizens are the bosses and the government is the employee that needs watching. But the current prevailing view seems to be the reverse, and hence citizens can't be trusted but must be treated like children while the State acts as the parent.

                          But if we're going to go that way, then we might as well take child-raising out of the hands of individuals as well, and let the State take the exclusive role of parent.

                          It's a Brave New World out there! (I'm off to take my Soma.)
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: read and reply.

                            Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                            then we might as well take child-raising out of the hands of individuals as well, and let the State take the exclusive role of parent.
                            Wait what?? You cannot possibly compare a child/human to an assault rifle. Especially if you are even suggesting that people should not be able to raise their child(ren). (I am all for persons who abuse their children/neglect not have the privilege, but that is a whole other discussion)

                            its 5pm time to go home. I have a lot of woodworking to do this weekend.
                            ww.thisoldhouse.com/toh/

                            ww.bobross.com/ - RIP Bob, we all still miss you!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: read and reply.

                              kinda getting off topic, but anyways, i wrote that to specify this, my beleife is guns create a safer society. someone wont mess with someone if they know there packing.
                              the avatar is not me, its my favorite singer.

                              Comment

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