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  • Boycott > Bailout ?

    The big three want $34 billion right now.

    I wonder if Americans can raise the stakes.

    With "only" 2.8 million boycotters, we can take double that amount away from the looters: if you figure each car sells for at least $25,000, then 2.8 million people going with a Toyota, Honda, Tesla (yikes!), Volvo, or what have you means $64 billion in lost revenue.

    I'm voting with my wallet and never buying a car from any of these companies again - I say that after having owned two Fords and two GMs in the past.
    A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

    "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

  • #2
    Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

    what im wondering is if we do bail them out, do we get discounts? I mean i figure my tax dollars are already in the car itself, so does that mean i get like 10% off?


    I completely agree. Let them file for bankrupt. They will then be able to cut ties with the unions, who are sucking them dry, and they can restructure and be competitive again. Them having issues is one reason i just bought a KIA.
    that sounds like a good idea trooper.
    -Vulcan

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    • #3
      Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

      I agree 100%

      Everyone sees bankruptcy as "going out of business." Bankruptcy will allow them to reorganize into a sustainable business. They might have been on top once, but with a product that people don't want to buy, you can't kid yourself into thinking that you are kings.

      At least they drove to Washington this time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

        Originally posted by Trooper View Post
        what im wondering is if we do bail them out, do we get discounts? I mean i figure my tax dollars are already in the car itself, so does that mean i get like 10% off?
        There is actually a senator that wants taxes breaks for people that buy American cars.
        http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/politics/

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        • #5
          Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

          I worked for GM and it's a (err was) a great company to work for. Best part was they used to take care of their own like family until the pension problems started racking up. I live my old GMs, but with their price hikes just to cover pension costs is a big incentive to turn to another automaker that also produces in the US like Toyota. Its sad to see them in such shape. I hope they can recover and get prices back to normal, but I don't see it happening.

          Originally posted by Global.Cooling View Post
          There is actually a senator that wants taxes breaks for people that buy American cars.
          http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/politics/
          What classifies american? GM/ford/Chrysler or any auto made in the USA? What about sum of parts because there is often a precentage of parts that are imported even in american assembled autos?
          The soldier formerly known as, Eroak.

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          • #6
            Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

            I'm a Patriotic American like the rest. My money is earned the hard way and if an American auto maker wants me to purchase one of their cars. Make it worth my money. I've owned Fords, Chevy and GM. I also own a Toyota Tacoma. I'm getting better gas mileage with fewer maintenance problems with the Japanese import. Not that long ago, I sold my Honda Del Sol. Same story with that. It was well built and got super gas mileage. I say head to the courts and restructure themselves. When they finish with that. Start building affordable well made vehicles that are fuel efficient. You want to beat the imports? Make a better vehicle and sell it at a reasonable rate! I feel much better now.
            sigpic

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            • #7
              Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

              Originally posted by Trooper View Post
              what im wondering is if we do bail them out, do we get discounts? I mean i figure my tax dollars are already in the car itself, so does that mean i get like 10% off?


              I completely agree. Let them file for bankrupt. They will then be able to cut ties with the unions, who are sucking them dry, and they can restructure and be competitive again. Them having issues is one reason i just bought a KIA.
              I think you guys are confused. This isn't a "bailout." It's a low-interest loan. The goal here is that the automakers would pay this back, with interest, in a couple of years time.

              Why does everyone speak of this in a way that makes it sound like the gov't is simply gifting money to the automakers? Do you really think that's what's happening?
              "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
              He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

              - Attributed to General George Patton, Jr.

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              • #8
                Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

                Originally posted by Eroak View Post
                What classifies american? GM/ford/Chrysler or any auto made in the USA? What about sum of parts because there is often a precentage of parts that are imported even in american assembled autos?
                Companies that are based in America.

                If you buy a foreign car made in America, sure you help employ Americans, but the money goes over seas.

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                • #9
                  Re: Boycott > Bailout ?

                  Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
                  I think you guys are confused. This isn't a "bailout." It's a low-interest loan. The goal here is that the automakers would pay this back, with interest, in a couple of years time.

                  Why does everyone speak of this in a way that makes it sound like the gov't is simply gifting money to the automakers? Do you really think that's what's happening?
                  Can you tell me what happens if these loans aren't enough to stop these companies' downward spiral towards non-existence? Who pays them back?
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                  • #10
                    Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                    Being from the Detroit area and knowing hundreds of people, myself included, working for GM, Ford and Chrysler I'll admit that I am biased here but I'm going to try to stick to facts.

                    First off as EVO pointed out the automakers are not asking for a Bailout. The are asking for a government bridge loan. This is a low interest loan that they will have to payback. The credit markets are frozen right now. It is impossible for these companies to get a loan through the private markets which is why they are going to the government.

                    Originally posted by Trooper View Post
                    Let them file for bankrupt. They will then be able to cut ties with the unions, who are sucking them dry, and they can restructure and be competitive again. Them having issues is one reason i just bought a KIA.
                    No auto company in the 100 year history of the industry has ever emerged from bankruptcy. As DrBeat said

                    Originally posted by DrBeat View Post
                    Everyone sees bankruptcy as "going out of business."
                    This is very much true. Americans are generally idiots when it comes to things like this. Because of this any company that files for bankruptcy won't have a chance to restructure. Sales will drop even sharper than they already have, nobody will buy a car from a company they think is "going out of business." Within 1 month suppliers will start to fail and that will raise prices for the other automakers including Toyota and Honda and the other foreign owned companies.

                    The UAW is not what caused this need. The current economic situation and the credit crisis did. With so much uncertainty in the economy today people just aren't buying cars. These companies have been restructuring themselves for the past 3-5 years. Ford reported profit in the first quarter of this year and then from March to April sales dropped over 20%.

                    I'm not saying the big Three haven't made their mistakes, but they've been trying to correct them already. Because of the current economy and credit situation they can't do this without help.

                    Let me ask you this, would you rather your tax dollars be spent in a loan now, or would you whether wait until these companies fail and up to 7 million people in this country in all 50 states and Washington D.C. are filing for unemployment, welfare, and Medicaid. Wyoming is the state least affected by the auto industry with just under 6000 direct or indirect auto jobs and only Alaska and Hawaii also have below 10,000.

                    Originally posted by DrBeat View Post
                    They might have been on top once, but with a product that people don't want to buy, you can't kid yourself into thinking that you are kings.
                    The number 1 and 2 best selling vehicles in 2008 are the Ford F-Series and the Chevy Silverado and of the top 10, 5 are Ford, GM, or Chrysler. Over 50% of all vehicles sold in the US are from one of the Big Three. The may not be kings, but I keep hearing they don't make products Americans want but apparently over half of the people that bought cars this year disagree.

                    Originally posted by xTYBALTx View Post
                    With "only" 2.8 million boycotters, we can take double that amount away from the looters: if you figure each car sells for at least $25,000, then 2.8 million people going with a Toyota, Honda, Tesla (yikes!), Volvo, or what have you means $64 billion in lost revenue.

                    I'm voting with my wallet and never buying a car from any of these companies again - I say that after having owned two Fords and two GMs in the past.
                    The fact that you include Vovlo, a Ford owned subsidiary, in your "boycott list" kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

                    | |


                    .....

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                    • #11
                      Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                      Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
                      I think you guys are confused. This isn't a "bailout." It's a low-interest loan. The goal here is that the automakers would pay this back, with interest, in a couple of years time.

                      Why does everyone speak of this in a way that makes it sound like the gov't is simply gifting money to the automakers? Do you really think that's what's happening?
                      It would be a gift because they are asking for the kind of "loan" that they can't get from normal lenders, who would probably perform due diligence before lending.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                        Originally posted by Evo<^|SiNz|^> View Post
                        I think you guys are confused. This isn't a "bailout." It's a low-interest loan. The goal here is that the automakers would pay this back, with interest, in a couple of years time.

                        Why does everyone speak of this in a way that makes it sound like the gov't is simply gifting money to the automakers? Do you really think that's what's happening?
                        A low interest loan to an insolvent company is a bail out.

                        25 month bonds from GM are paying 87% interest! That's what they get on the open market.
                        Last edited by Nikolas; 12-04-2008, 11:21 AM.
                        A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                        "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                          Originally posted by pedestrian01 View Post
                          First off as EVO pointed out the automakers are not asking for a Bailout. The are asking for a government bridge loan.
                          It's called a pier loan, not a bridge loan. ;]

                          Originally posted by pedestrain101
                          This is very much true. Americans are generally idiots when it comes to things like this. Because of this any company that files for bankruptcy won't have a chance to restructure. Sales will drop even sharper than they already have, nobody will buy a car from a company they think is "going out of business."
                          Just like nobody flew on an airline that was going through Chapter 11?

                          Originally posted by pedestrian01
                          I'm not saying the big Three haven't made their mistakes, but they've been trying to correct them already. Because of the current economy and credit situation they can't do this without help.
                          They should present their "plan" to the open market and see if they can sell bonds to people consensually. Jacking cash from the productive citizens of the US to pay for their garbage insolvent companies should be criminal.

                          Originally posted by pedestrian01
                          Over 50% of all vehicles sold in the US are from one of the Big Three.
                          As of 2008, this is no longer the case.

                          Originally posted by pedestrian01
                          The fact that you include Vovlo, a Ford owned subsidiary, in your "boycott list" kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?
                          Good catch. Pass on Volvo too - unless Ford sells it, an option they evidently are looking into.
                          A policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy. -F.A. Hayek

                          "$250,000 a year won't get me to Central Park West."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                            I understand to well. They want the US government to loan them money in the hope that they can turn their situation around and start to make money again. What do we do when that doesn't happen? Times are changing and not for the better. They need to take a trip down to the bankruptcy courts and explain to the judge their situation. I felt bad when I lost my job. I will feel bad for all the auto workers when they lose their jobs too. Throwing money into a sinking ship helps nobody. No offense to anyone, this is just my opinion.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              Re: Boycott &gt; Bailout ?

                              Originally posted by CingularDuality View Post
                              Can you tell me what happens if these loans aren't enough to stop these companies' downward spiral towards non-existence? Who pays them back?

                              Thats my thing. And with our countries history of just canceling loans and just giving money away, i wouldn't be surprised at seeing this.

                              And i agree that bankruptcy would crash alot harder then most think, but 99% of Americans did not create the problem in the auto industry so why should our tax dollars go to bail it out? And i for the first time in months im very pleased at how congress is stepping up and asking for a plan, now had they done that with the banks we might be doing better then we are.


                              one thing to keep in mind. The big 3 pay about $75 an hour to unions for each employee. Honda and Toyota do the same work in the states for around $45 an hour non union, and have all the same benifits and perks or better that the big 3 have.
                              that sounds like a good idea trooper.
                              -Vulcan

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