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  • Evolution

    Sorry for yet another evolution thread, but there are a couple of pieces of media floating around this week that brought this up:

    The economist's weekly graphic is on the public acceptance of the Theory of Evolution.
    http://www.economist.com/daily/chart...62613&fsrc=rss

    The U.S. and Turkey do not appear to be going with the flow here.

    The PBS television series 'NOVA' is running a documentary (Judgement Day)on the Dover (PA) School Board case involving Intelligent Design. In this case, Intelligent Design was proven to be an offshoot of Creationism, and therefore ruled as unconstitutional material in a public school. As you can imagine, this is hotly debated.

  • #2
    Re: Evolution

    Only 37% think it is true?

    Even more amazing is that almost 40% think it is false!

    No wonder America is so dominate in the entertainment industry. We are populated by huge numbers of people that live in a fantasy world. No lack of imagination in this country.

    Now is this good or bad?
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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    • #3
      Re: Evolution

      Originally posted by AMosely View Post
      The U.S. and Turkey do not appear to be going with the flow here.
      I do note that the US and Turkey were the only countries in the survey not from Europe. Perhaps they are going with a different non-European flow?

      (Iceland sorta counts as European, right?)

      Edit: Gringo, those are the numbers for Turkey, not the US.

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      • #4
        Re: Evolution

        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post

        Edit: Gringo, those are the numbers for Turkey, not the US.
        You are correct. I'll edit.
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Evolution

          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
          No wonder America is so dominate in the entertainment industry. We are populated by huge numbers of people that live in a fantasy world. No lack of imagination in this country.
          Yes because there is a huge distinction between those that believe nothing led to the creation of something and those that believe something always was and created more.
          |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

          XBL GT: Khan58

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          • #6
            Re: Evolution

            Most people in the US can't even define evolution. How do you expect them to think it's real if they don't even know what it is?

            No big surprise that most of the biologists I've worked with are naturalized citizens or foreign nationals.



            TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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            • #7
              Re: Evolution

              Sort of sad IMHO that more people in America don't have an understanding for evolution, but then again, that can open a whole new can of worms especially if you throw religion into it........but good post mosely, very interesting study, I wish I could have been a part of it.

              I leave you all with a nice mural:

              [img]http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/34453/graffiti.jpg[/img
              Last edited by Delta*RandyShugart*; 02-05-2009, 05:00 PM.
              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
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              We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

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              • #8
                Re: Evolution

                The problem with this study is that it is so black and white. What about people in the middle, such as myself? I believe in both evolution AND creation. I believe that creation was done THROUGH the means of evolution. What's wrong with that theory? Me thinking that doesn't shoot down the theory of evolution or anything. I just believe it was ultimately designed by God. Some people are just trying to give credit where credit is due. Some scientists are trying to dig a little deeper to see what's behind evolution.

                The people who I do think are wrong on the creation side are the one's who think that the earth was literally created in a week. That poof, a man appeared, and poof, a woman appeared. My personal belief is that each day that the Bible talks about, in the story of creation, represents millions upon millions of years.

                I think that most Americans along the Creation side of things share my views. Any TG'ers here who are Christians and/or God believers who disagree with me?
                "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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                • #9
                  Re: Evolution

                  Maybe more people need to read/watch Cosmos?

                  EDIT: On War's comment. I'm sorry to disagree with you here, but I do believe that the numbers point to a different hypothesis. One that would have most on the Creation side holding the Theory of Evolution to be false. This is because, regardless of their stance on God's/the Creator's involvement, they would say that evolution is true.

                  Also, upon reading the article, I found a peculiar line:
                  "In 2008 14% of people polled by Gallup agreed that “man evolved over millions of years”, up from 9% in 1982."
                  Doesn't this refute the data shown on their own graph? Or can people agree that evolution is true WITHOUT having to believe in the evolution of man?

                  EDIT EDIT: Forgot one last thing, War. How would you respond to the question: Is evolution true or false, or are you not sure whether it is true or false?
                  Last edited by Birdman1011395; 02-05-2009, 03:26 PM. Reason: Posted before and after War
                  BF 2142:|TG| Birdman10113
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                  • #10
                    Re: Evolution

                    Originally posted by War.mongeR1 View Post
                    The problem with this study is that it is so black and white. What about people in the middle, such as myself? I believe in both evolution AND creation. I believe that creation was done THROUGH the means of evolution. What's wrong with that theory? Me thinking that doesn't shoot down the theory of evolution or anything. I just believe it was ultimately designed by God. Some people are just trying to give credit where credit is due. Some scientists are trying to dig a little deeper to see what's behind evolution.

                    The people who I do think are wrong on the creation side are the one's who think that the earth was literally created in a week. That poof, a man appeared, and poof, a woman appeared. My personal belief is that each day that the Bible talks about, in the story of creation, represents millions upon millions of years.

                    I think that most Americans along the Creation side of things share my views. Any TG'ers here who are Christians and/or God believers who disagree with me?
                    The scope of evolution does not include the creation of life; that field is called abiogenesis.

                    Abiogenesis is the study of the origin of life.

                    Evolution is the study of how genes change over time within populations [in response to selective pressures, genetic drift, and other factors].

                    Speciation is the study of how new species arise and how the concept of 'species' is defined.

                    Although many scientists claim to be atheist and/or agnostic, there are many others who adhere to various religions and find no conflict between their religious beliefs and their scientific fields of study. One of the more notable people who fall into this category is Dr. Ken Miller, professor of biology at an Ivy League school and a Roman Catholic.



                    TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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                    • #11
                      Re: Evolution

                      @Delta: Good grief, could you possibly swap that IMG tag for a link instead? Its like 8 screens wide.

                      @War: Sounds good, I'll agree with you.

                      @Bird: I would respond "no" to the survey, despite agreeing with probably 80% of the theory of evolution. To me, the public conception of Theory of Evolution is too synonymous with naturalistic, unguided evolution to allow ideas like Warmonger's to count.

                      @Tau: Abiogenesis isn't the STUDY of the origin of life, its a particular THEORY of the origin of life -- specifically, that life arose spontanteously from non-life. And yes, the typical description of the field of Evolution does not include the study of origin of life, but many of the assumptions used for Evolution don't work properly without abiogenesis, so they're still very closely related.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Evolution

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        @Tau: Abiogenesis isn't the STUDY of the origin of life, its a particular THEORY of the origin of life -- specifically, that life arose spontanteously from non-life. And yes, the typical description of the field of Evolution does not include the study of origin of life, but many of the assumptions used for Evolution don't work properly without abiogenesis, so they're still very closely related.
                        Abiogenesis is the study of how life originated, and there are many competing theories on the matter. We cannot determine whether the processes are spontaneous since there are insufficient data.

                        Evolution is related to abiogenesis in that it assumes life exists, is hereditary, and is subject to various abiotic and biotic selective pressures. In practical application of evolutionary theories -- e.g. in biomedical research -- the concept of abiogenesis is seldom, if ever, invoked -- and usually in a very speculative manner.



                        TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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                        • #13
                          Re: Evolution

                          I will grant you that there are still plenty of competing ideas on what abiogenesis might have been like and how it might have happened, none of which have gained significant dominance yet due to lack of evidence. However, note that the name implies whatever ultimate source they are looking for must be some variety of spontaneous non-living mechnism, or it wouldn't count as abiogenesis. It would be perfectly possible to have a different theory of the origin of life-on-earth that didn't share those characteristics, but such a theory would need a new name other than abiogenesis.

                          When I say that Evolution relies on abiogenesis, I don't mean that it cares about any of the characteristics of HOW abiogenesis occurred, only that it did, at some point, occur. If one of the non-abiogenetic theories proved to be the correct explanation of origin-of-life, that would change a number of the assumptions that go into Evolution.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Evolution

                            Originally posted by Birdman1011395 View Post
                            Maybe more people need to read/watch Cosmos?
                            I believe that the world would be a better place if they did!

                            I'd also suggest that anyone finding themselves at all conflicted over religious and scientific views read Sagan's 'Varieties of Scientific Experience.' Even if you're not conflicted, you should read it anyway.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Evolution

                              Originally posted by Birdman1011395 View Post
                              Maybe more people need to read/watch Cosmos?

                              EDIT: On War's comment. I'm sorry to disagree with you here, but I do believe that the numbers point to a different hypothesis. One that would have most on the Creation side holding the Theory of Evolution to be false. This is because, regardless of their stance on God's/the Creator's involvement, they would say that evolution is true.

                              Also, upon reading the article, I found a peculiar line:
                              "In 2008 14% of people polled by Gallup agreed that “man evolved over millions of years”, up from 9% in 1982."
                              Doesn't this refute the data shown on their own graph? Or can people agree that evolution is true WITHOUT having to believe in the evolution of man?

                              EDIT EDIT: Forgot one last thing, War. How would you respond to the question: Is evolution true or false, or are you not sure whether it is true or false?
                              I would agree with you about Cosmos. That is one of the most fascinating and well done shows about the topic. Carl Sagan was truly brilliant.

                              To answer your question about evolution being true or false, I cannot answer for sure. The question was written out as an absolute. "Is evolution true or false?" Since it's a theory, no one knows for sure. Many may think one way or the other, but nothing is a certain truth or falsity as of yet. However, I do THINK evolution is true. I also THINK creation is true as well.

                              In the show, "Cosmos," they show a fascinating study of how life may have started by recreating it in a lab. There was this huge spherical glass thing filled with a certain gas. They put an electrical spark in it, and voila, biological material started to grow inside of it. I forget the exact details since it's been so long ago that I watched it, but that's the gist of it. Here's the problem I have with that idea. I'm not saying that's not how life began, BUT it took scientists (aka "man") to put those circumstances together and then to cause the spark. My belief is that it took someone/something/some consciousness/some entity/some intelligence to put exactly the right circumstances together and cause that spark to happen.

                              I believe Atheists feel too threatened by the idea of "Intelligent Design." I'm an ID believer, but I don't intend for the ID theory being taught to discount evolution or to push God on anyone. My intent is to suggest that this entire infinitely complex universe might just be more than purely random coincidence.
                              "Common sense is not so common." -Voltaire

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