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The hell with the IRS!

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  • #61
    Re: The hell with the IRS!

    Originally posted by CingularDuality
    The fact is that "disposable income" doesn't mean much
    Is that a fact? Are you trying to say that someone making $30K/year could, by choice, somehow have just as much disposable income as someone making $130K/year? Of course there is flexibility surrounding the way individuals choose to structure their personal finances, but don't for a minute think that disposable income doesn't mean much. It's something that just about everyone wants more of and often strives to get - it means a great deal.

    I'm not saying that disposable income should be disposed of by the government, or anyone else for that matter. But if you have thousands of extra dollars, through hard work or not, you can contribute more to your government than someone who, through hard work or not, has little to no disposable income.

    The comments about disposable income and consumption made me wonder how many of you would (or do) support Neal Boortz and John Linder's 'Fair Tax' proposal? That, to me, is the leading alternative (as opposed to adjusted) tax theory being floated right now. To me it looks like a trojan horse, but that's just my view of it. As flawed as it is in America, I believe in the progressive tax system.

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    • #62
      Re: The hell with the IRS!

      Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
      Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
      *Ahem* The "individuals" that you claim aren't paying taxes because they "deduct air" are added together to MAKE that group statistic.
      Precisely. Even AFTER only net paying 5-15% taxes as gringo says.

      Like I said before, I'd rather have them pay non-deductible taxes that are less instead of PRETENDING to pay high taxes and touting graphs such as those to prove their point.
      What? No, you've got it all backwards. If you take the average of ten, or a hundred, or a thousand guys paying only 15% taxes, you're still going to get an average of 15%. The only way to get an average of 35% is if most of them actually pay about that much or more. You're letting your cynicism blind you here. The top ranks of income earners really do pay more, despite everything you've heard about "unfair" deductions.

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      • #63
        Re: The hell with the IRS!

        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
        What? No, you've got it all backwards. If you take the average of ten, or a hundred, or a thousand guys paying only 15% taxes, you're still going to get an average of 15%. The only way to get an average of 35% is if most of them actually pay about that much or more. You're letting your cynicism blind you here. The top ranks of income earners really do pay more, despite everything you've heard about "unfair" deductions.
        Uhh, no I dont have it backwards. (sigh)
        Look, Kero... that graph represents tax SHARE and share of income of the country. It has NOTHING to do with how much percent taxes a group individually pays; even as an average.

        You could have the top 2% paying net 1% taxes on average and they'd STILL represent 30% of the total tax share of the country. Feel me?

        Find another graph... that one is no longer valid (and it wasnt the last time we had a thread like this)

        And it's not cynicism and those deductions ARE unfair and NO the top income earners DONT pay more percentage-wise, they just pay more cash-wise, which doesnt make them immune to higher taxes. It's just realism. Btw; I generally live and work amongst the top 2% just about every day... so my cynicism is usually backed up by fact in these regards and comes from the horse's mouth - not mine. I'm just the messenger.

        As for the Fair Tax, there's no way in hell it'd work right now. The global retail markets arent even remotely on even turf, therefore applying a retail tax to maintain a country's revenues is folly. You think our manufacturing suffers now? What do you think would happen if we federally taxed retail? Only companies that would make money are FedEx and UPS once everyone in the USA starts buying foreign directly. (not like they dont already)

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        • #64
          Re: The hell with the IRS!

          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
          Look at the latest crisis. It was caused, in part, because a rather small percentage of people made some very bad decisions.
          Those people are called Politicians!

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          • #65
            Re: The hell with the IRS!

            Originally posted by Global.Cooling View Post
            Those people are called Politicians!
            Bah... Global, those politicians have no real power bro. Staring at the tax graph should've told you that much.

            Politicians are pawns for the elite, nothing more. Once federalism is destroyed, taxes restructured, and various other reforms done then maybe we can start directly blaming politicians for our follies- interestingly though, at that point really the blame will lie with everyone.

            For now though, the people in power are to blame (wealth, religion, and politics... in that order), not merely politicians and definitely not the masses.

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            • #66
              Re: The hell with the IRS!

              Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
              Uhh, no I dont have it backwards. (sigh)
              Look, Kero... that graph represents tax SHARE and share of income of the country. It has NOTHING to do with how much percent taxes a group individually pays; even as an average.

              You could have the top 2% paying net 1% taxes on average and they'd STILL represent 30% of the total tax share of the country. Feel me?
              Sure, I feel what you're feeling here. But the problem is, your feelings can't do math. If you'd stop feeling and start thinking, you'd see that doesn't actually work. If the top 17% of income pays 30% of the total taxes, that DOES have something to do with how much percent taxes the individuals pay out. They must be paying a higher percentage individually in order for their tax share to be higher than their income share. If a different group has a smaller income share than tax share, they must be paying a lower percentage individually.

              A 1% net tax on the top 2% of the country wouldn't come anywhere close to 30% of our current tax burden. It would be more like 2%.

              Find another graph... that one is no longer valid (and it wasnt the last time we had a thread like this)
              I notice you didn't specify WHY its not valid, but sure: Here is more recent data that goes through '06. Sorry its not in a pretty graph format, you'll have to make do with a data table. For '06, the top 1% make 22% of AGI and pay 40% of all taxes.

              And it's not cynicism and those deductions ARE unfair and NO the top income earners DONT pay more percentage-wise, they just pay more cash-wise, which doesnt make them immune to higher taxes. It's just realism. Btw; I generally live and work amongst the top 2% just about every day... so my cynicism is usually backed up by fact in these regards and comes from the horse's mouth - not mine. I'm just the messenger.
              The top income earners don't even get to USE most deductions. The vast majority of deductions phase themselves out well before you reach the top 1%, and just in case you found a few that didn't phase out, the AMT kicks in and doesn't allow any deductions at all!

              But tell me, while working with the top 2%, have you ever looked at their tax returns? Or are you just hearing second-hand that they don't think they pay much?

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              • #67
                Re: The hell with the IRS!

                Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                A 1% net tax on the top 2% of the country wouldn't come anywhere close to 30% of our current tax burden. It would be more like 2%.
                I used that as an exaggerated example to try and prove my point. Tax share has nothing to do with individual tax percentage. Period. And on a raw income to income basis, a guy like me pays more percentage of his monthly nut in taxes than a guy like Buffet or Gates.

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                • #68
                  Re: The hell with the IRS!

                  I will grant you that Buffet and Gates have an advantage over you, but its not deductions -- their advantage is called the Capital Gains Tax. They still pay a higher percent than you on regular income, but Long-Term Capital Gains isn't regular income and gets a lower rate.

                  Do we have any common ground yet?

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                  • #69
                    Re: The hell with the IRS!

                    How about removing all taxes on wages and moving that tax burden to investment income? The original income tax (early 20th century) was supposed to be applied only to the ultra rich. The wage tax was supposed to be temporary, to pay for WWII.

                    If 50% of people pay 96% of taxes, reducing revenue by only 4% eliminates the need for half the population to pay taxes.
                    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                    • #70
                      Re: The hell with the IRS!

                      Did I miss the National Sales Tax/Consumption Tax argument/Discussion.?
                      |TG|ARMA Pathfinder
                      ..now where did I put my keys?

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                      • #71
                        Re: The hell with the IRS!

                        Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                        If 50% of people pay 96% of taxes, reducing revenue by only 4% eliminates the need for half the population to pay taxes.
                        But removing taxes from half the population (and not by lowering the rates, mind you, just by exempting them straight out according to your math) means half our nations voters no longer have any reason to care about the tax rates. Politically thats very dangerous, and would be likely to lead to substantially increased rates on the people who still do pay taxes. You dont ever want a nation's tax burden to fall on less than half of its voters, or else the risk of the exempt voters voting themselves money out of someone else's pocket skyrockets.

                        Granted, we see a fair amount of that anyway, but I certainly don't want to do anything to increase that tendency.

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                        • #72
                          Re: The hell with the IRS!

                          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                          But removing taxes from half the population (and not by lowering the rates, mind you, just by exempting them straight out according to your math) means half our nations voters no longer have any reason to care about the tax rates. Politically thats very dangerous, and would be likely to lead to substantially increased rates on the people who still do pay taxes. You dont ever want a nation's tax burden to fall on less than half of its voters, or else the risk of the exempt voters voting themselves money out of someone else's pocket skyrockets.
                          There was NO income (wage) tax prior to 1916. Did we see a lot of this problem in the 19th century?

                          Taxes are defined by the ability to grab money from one person's pockets and paying another with them, at least with the current system of dumping all the revenue in one big pot and then every Congressman grabbing as much as he can for his district. It's no wonder that no one in government objects to earmarks, not even Obama. It's working as designed.

                          If you want to keep people from voting themselves bread and circuses, then get rid of the general fund, and make taxes spendable only on those who pay them, by tying them firmly to specific outlays before they're collected. (But expect strong opposition from the grasshoppers.)
                          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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                          • #73
                            Re: The hell with the IRS!

                            So you'd prefer we all commuted on mule pulled carts, along dirt ruts. Taxation is probably the only way significant infrastructure will ever get built. I won't disagree with the fact the many times, funds have gone into completely the wrong projects, but that has a lot more to do with politicians than taxation.
                            Do or do not, there is no try....
                            -- Yoda, Dagobah

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                            • #74
                              Re: The hell with the IRS!

                              Originally posted by gunjunkie View Post
                              ...but that has a lot more to do with politicians than taxation.
                              How do you get taxation without politicians? Or politicians without taxation for that matter. They're sort of inseparable.

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                              • #75
                                Re: The hell with the IRS!

                                No I agree with that. Whether the politicians (specific, not general) are actually looking out for the best interests of the people is, I think, the matter that is undecided to me. I do believe there was a time though, when politicians acted in the interests of the people, just doesn't seem to be now.
                                Do or do not, there is no try....
                                -- Yoda, Dagobah

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