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Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

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  • Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

    Reasonable or not?

    I respect religion, but at what point does a clearly utilitarian cause outweigh perhaps outdated policies? Please share your thoughts but please keep it civil!



  • #2
    Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

    This pope is destroying all the good will I gained towards the catholic church with john paul..what a dumb "ban"



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    • #3
      Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

      Its not a new ban though. This has been a long-standing policy of the Catholic church. Its one of many reasons I associate myself with Protestant Christians instead of Catholics, but I still have respect for them.

      Getting back to the original question, the Pope's declaration wasn't designed to be "religion outweighing a utilitarian policy". That particular article doesn't make it clear, but the Pope doesn't believe that spreading condoms will really have the utilitarian benefits most people expect from it. After all, a strict Catholic interpretation of "no condoms, but you cant have sex with anyone except your wife/husband" would slow down the spread of AIDS much faster than a lax interpretation of "use condoms whenever possible, and keep sleeping around".

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      • #4
        Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
        Its not a new ban though. This has been a long-standing policy of the Catholic church. Its one of many reasons I associate myself with Protestant Christians instead of Catholics, but I still have respect for them.

        Getting back to the original question, the Pope's declaration wasn't designed to be "religion outweighing a utilitarian policy". That particular article doesn't make it clear, but the Pope doesn't believe that spreading condoms will really have the utilitarian benefits most people expect from it. After all, a strict Catholic interpretation of "no condoms, but you cant have sex with anyone except your wife/husband" would slow down the spread of AIDS much faster than a lax interpretation of "use condoms whenever possible, and keep sleeping around".
        And if your wife and husband already has HIV/AIDS? You really expect them to continue abstaining from sex?


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        • #5
          Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

          Well, I'm not a Catholic, so me personally? I'd use a condom. But the article does mention that the Pope had assembled an ethics panel to address exactly that question.

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          • #6
            Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

            I didn't know the Pope was in control of Africa, Bono and Clooney are going to have a S*** fit.
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            • #7
              Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

              Originally posted by Delta*RandyShugart* View Post
              I didn't know the Pope was in control of Africa, Bono and Clooney are going to have a S*** fit.
              Lol!..

              At lease Angelina J. can adopt a few more orphans...
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              • #8
                Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                I do not approve. A long standing policy that is putting thousands or millions of people in clear threat of a lingering, terrible death needs to be changed.

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                • #9
                  Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                  Except that the danger doesn't really come from following the Catholic policy, it comes from breaking specific portions of the Catholic policy. Perhaps breaking all of it might be safer than breaking only part of it, but breaking none of it would be the safest of all. So how does that justify changing the policy?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                    Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                    So how does that justify changing the policy?
                    The same way they quit using BS logic to justify denying marriages to interracial couples: get with the times.

                    It's this same line of "abstinence only" crap that's causing rural sections of America to have AIDs rates on par with 3rd world countries.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                      Originally posted by TheFeniX View Post
                      The same way they quit using BS logic to justify denying marriages to interracial couples: get with the times.

                      It's this same line of "abstinence only" crap that's causing rural sections of America to have AIDs rates on par with 3rd world countries.
                      That's not really the same at all. I don't agree with the policy because I think the logic behind it is incorrect (in addition to not being Catholic), but it doesn't have anything to do with interracial marriage OR "getting with the times". Religious morals are not required to update themselves to fit with changing societal norms -- if they were, they would be irrelevant as a concept to begin with.

                      (Also, the S on AIDS isn't plural, its part of the acronym. It gets capitalized too.)

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                      • #12
                        Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                        Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                        Religious morals are not required to update themselves to fit with changing societal norms -- if they were, they would be irrelevant as a concept to begin with.
                        Maybe, but when they start contributing to a serious health problem and can be seen as directly responsible for the death of thousands, maybe they need to be re-evaluated.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                          Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                          That's not really the same at all. I don't agree with the policy because I think the logic behind it is incorrect (in addition to not being Catholic), but it doesn't have anything to do with interracial marriage OR "getting with the times".
                          No, it never does because "it's different." Which is always said, yet never explained why it's different.

                          Religious morals are not required to update themselves to fit with changing societal norms -- if they were, they would be irrelevant as a concept to begin with.
                          Now we're getting somewhere. I like the way you think. That's the problem: religious morals are, for the most part, irrelevant to begin with at best, and a massive danger to society at worse.

                          (Also, the S on AIDS isn't plural, its part of the acronym. It gets capitalized too.)
                          My intentional miscapitalization of AIDS stems from an inside joke I had with a coworker years ago. I do the same thing with MACS (Macintosh). It's hard to break because AIDS is not something I type out much at all outside of the conversations we had. But thanks for the nitpick.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                            Originally posted by TheFeniX View Post
                            No, it never does because "it's different." Which is always said, yet never explained why it's different.
                            Nor did you explain why its the same. I don't see any parallels that need refutation, so I'm not sure where to start in explaining why its different. So...you first.

                            Now we're getting somewhere. I like the way you think. That's the problem: religious morals are, for the most part, irrelevant to begin with at best, and a massive danger to society at worse.
                            This is going to lead to a massive tangent too big to fit in this thread, but we do appear to have SOME sort of common ground here. I view religious morals as objective things that exist apart from societal norms and can help advise us as to whether societal norms are desirable or undesirable. You seem to agree on their independence, but disagree on their value (ie, you don't think they have any). Does that sum it up fairly well?

                            Edit: On second thought, I think I just read you exactly backwards. Please clarify?
                            My intentional miscapitalization of AIDS stems from an inside joke I had with a coworker years ago. I do the same thing with MACS (Macintosh). It's hard to break because AIDS is not something I type out much at all outside of the conversations we had. But thanks for the nitpick.
                            Isn't MACs plural though? *confused*

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                            • #15
                              Re: Pope reaffirms ban on condom use in Africa

                              Originally posted by Kerostasis View Post
                              I view religious morals as objective things that exist apart from societal norms and can help advise us as to whether societal norms are desirable or undesirable.
                              Religious morals are a constant source of reference as society evolves, and while the core principles may stay unchanged (as you said, if they were constantly updated they would be irrelevant to begin with), their interpretation must evolve with the times. One must realize that these "morals" are blindly followed by hundreds of millions, and for the Church to stubbornly stand by outdated principles such as these can make them indirectly responsible for the deaths of many. An epidemic such as AIDS hardly qualifies simply as "changing societal norms".


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