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  • Where's the Navy?

    How is it that a Navy founded for the purpose of fighting piracy, with 6 fleets and 11 nuclear aircraft carriers and all the assorted support that includes, was unable to protect a merchant marine captain from kidnapping by what amounts to savages running a glorified rowboat? Why is there no CAP over the Somalian coast?
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  • #2
    Re: Where's the Navy?

    Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
    How is it that a Navy founded for the purpose of fighting piracy, with 6 fleets and 11 nuclear aircraft carriers and all the assorted support that includes, was unable to protect a merchant marine captain from kidnapping by what amounts to savages running a glorified rowboat? Why is there no CAP over the Somalian coast?
    The modern Navy is built to
    1. Project massive amounts of power in far away places in a very short amount of time.
    2. To keep sea lanes open during times of war.
    3. Be the first (and most effective) defense against invasion/attack by eastern hemisphere powers.

    It isn't set up to protect individual ships in international waters where many peaceful ships and boats are doing their thing. This might sound like it is going against #2 above. But during a war critical shipping would have designated Navy escorts. I would also bet that during war the private ships would be better armed and allowed to fire at small ships that approached them.
    Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
    - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
    - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
    - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
    - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
    - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
    - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

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    • #3
      Re: Where's the Navy?

      I think we'd need a lot more ships just to cover all of the area. But don't we have satellite surveillance that can track pirate ships?



      TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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      • #4
        Re: Where's the Navy?

        Originally posted by tau_neutrino View Post
        But don't we have satellite surveillance that can track pirate ships?
        The ones that have their Jolly Roger up.

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        • #5
          Re: Where's the Navy?

          Originally posted by tau_neutrino View Post
          I think we'd need a lot more ships just to cover all of the area. But don't we have satellite surveillance that can track pirate ships?
          Originally posted by Hambergler View Post
          The ones that have their Jolly Roger up.
          The problem is, as hambergler pointed out, is that the pirate ships look just like all the fishing vessels out there. If the only thing out there where the pirates and the targets the Navy could easily deal with the threat. Every pirate could be taken out within minutes of detection.

          But the risk of blowing a innocent fisherman out of the ocean is something we won't risk.
          Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
          - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
          - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
          - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
          - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
          - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
          - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Where's the Navy?

            Still, if you get an alert that a merchant is under attack, what's your response time? If you're on the far side of the planet, it's gotta be pretty long. But a carrier in the area ought to have a pretty fast response.

            I'm reminded of Harry Browne's assertion about our military: The US has a great offense, but a terrible defense. We can smash the other guy's stuff flat, but we don't have a lot of capability to protect our own stuff.
            Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

            snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

            Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Where's the Navy?

              Also, according to the merchant mariners association statistics, there are something in the neighborhood of 28,000 vessels off the coast of africa at any given time. thats a bit more than one battle group could really track and acquire intent from. And as far as defense goes, the only time we've ever been smacked was by complete surprise. You want a prime example of how good our defense is? Take a look at the battle of Leyte Gulf during WWII, and look how our defense manhandled the japanese.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Where's the Navy?

                Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                How is it that a Navy founded for the purpose of fighting piracy, with 6 fleets and 11 nuclear aircraft carriers and all the assorted support that includes, was unable to protect a merchant marine captain from kidnapping by what amounts to savages running a glorified rowboat? Why is there no CAP over the Somalian coast?
                you really aren't serious are you, then again.............you pointed out a simple fact (though the british, Canadian, Spanish, Netherlands, Indian and Portuguese nav's are is are the other navy's helping out)

                It's a shame that the UN doesn't step up and take control of the situation also mind you that only so many ships only be in so many places, and this recent ship with an American crew was out much farther than the previous ones.

                Scratch i get the feeling sometimes you post to only provoke...........
                Last edited by Delta*RandyShugart*; 04-12-2009, 02:58 PM. Reason: edited to add additional countries trying to stop sea-borne piracy.
                Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                Level I HazMat Technician
                NYS EMT-B
                Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

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                • #9
                  Re: Where's the Navy?

                  Originally posted by Delta*RandyShugart* View Post
                  plain and simple, I don't see the UN stepping up, i don't see France, I don't see Spain, I don't see any other Country with a Navy.....and so many ships can only be in so many places.
                  Did you look with your eyes or your gut?

                  http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...nTQzwD975O0380
                  Originally posted by http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iD0M1tGVhkzA6LAmgyXZvn5nTQzwD975O0380
                  The flotilla of ships from Portugal, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain and the United States is commanded by a Portuguese admiral.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Where's the Navy?

                    Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                    How is it that a Navy founded for the purpose of fighting piracy, with 6 fleets and 11 nuclear aircraft carriers and all the assorted support that includes, was unable to protect a merchant marine captain from kidnapping by what amounts to savages running a glorified rowboat? Why is there no CAP over the Somalian coast?
                    Because piracy these days can consist of four guys on a boat with an outboard motor wielding AKs and RPG7s. Its like asking why the Death Star couldn't use its superlaser to just shoot down Luke's X-wing.

                    (Yeah, I'm nerdy)
                    I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Where's the Navy?

                      Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                      Still, if you get an alert that a merchant is under attack, what's your response time? If you're on the far side of the planet, it's gotta be pretty long. But a carrier in the area ought to have a pretty fast response.

                      I'm reminded of Harry Browne's assertion about our military: The US has a great offense, but a terrible defense. We can smash the other guy's stuff flat, but we don't have a lot of capability to protect our own stuff.
                      By the time the merchant ship puts out a call it is over. What is the Navy to do at that point, bomb the merchant ship?


                      Trying to hit a small boat with a huge merchant ship as background is going to be almost impossible unless you mind risking the merchant ship and everybody aboard.

                      I am sure these pirates know fairly accurately where the navy ships are. They can target the commercial shipping that are more than thirty minutes away and have plenty of time to put themselves in a position that is un-attackable by modern munitions.
                      Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                      - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                      - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                      - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                      - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                      - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                      - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Where's the Navy?

                        Originally posted by Delta*RandyShugart* View Post
                        if the United States doesn't do something no one cares and no one does anything about it.........plain and simple, I don't see the UN stepping up, i don't see France, I don't see Spain, I don't see any other Country with a Navy.....and so many ships can only be in so many places.
                        Are you ignoring the time India's navy actually hit a large pirate vessel in an action that the US has so far failed to follow up on, emulate, or otherwise enact? Seriously, its not all about the USN.
                        I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Where's the Navy?

                          I am not ignoring, but scratchmonkey put the US Navy at the center of attention, and I will re-edit my post. Maybe the Maritime Laws will be re-written with the amount of sea-borne piracy that is happening, I know that Crewman aboard these vessels are not allowed to carry weapons, but maybe with what is going on, they will re-edit the laws and allow a few firearms on board these ships. Now they don't need an entire arsenal but maybe 4 rifles, and 2 pistols will be fine.
                          Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                          Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                          Level I HazMat Technician
                          NYS EMT-B
                          Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

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                          Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                          RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                          Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                          Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                          We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

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                          • #14
                            Re: Where's the Navy?

                            Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
                            The problem is, as hambergler pointed out, is that the pirate ships look just like all the fishing vessels out there. If the only thing out there where the pirates and the targets the Navy could easily deal with the threat. Every pirate could be taken out within minutes of detection.

                            But the risk of blowing a innocent fisherman out of the ocean is something we won't risk.
                            Good points.

                            Looks like a SEAL team launched a successful op and freed Capt. Phillips. :) 3 of 4 Somali pirates killed in firefight.



                            TacticalGamer TX LAN/BBQ Veteran

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                            • #15
                              Re: Where's the Navy?

                              Yep, the SEALs got the Captain on the Pirate boat, and the pirate negotiator who was on land.

                              http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/

                              MOMBASA, Kenya - A U.S. military official said Navy Seals and other officers opened fire on three pirates when a Navy commander made a split-second decision that an American hostage's life was in danger.

                              Vice Adm. Bill Gortney also said the pirates made a ransom demand for the release of Capt. Richard Phillips.

                              Gortney said the pirates threatened throughout the ordeal to kill Phillips. Gortney says the pirates were armed with AK-47s and small-caliber pistols, and were pointing the AK-47s at the captain.
                              Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

                              Gortney said the commander of the nearby USS Bainbridge believed Phillips was in "imminent danger" when he ordered sailors to fire at the armed pirates.

                              Gortney said the White House had given "very clear guidance and authority" that if any time the commander Capt. Phillips' life was in danger to take action to make sure it was not

                              Offered himself as a hostage
                              Phillips' crew, who said they had escaped after he offered himself as a hostage, erupted in cheers aboard their ship docked in Mombasa, Kenya. Some waved an American flag and fired a flare in celebration.

                              The U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet said Phillips was resting comfortably on a U.S. warship after receiving a medical exam.

                              U.S. officials said Obama ordered the Defense Department to use military resources to rescue Phillips. Obama said the captain had courage that was "a model for all Americans." The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not yet authorized to disclose the president's decision-making process.

                              Obama said he was pleased that Phillips was rescued, adding that the United States needs help from other countries to deal with the threat of piracy and to hold pirates accountable.

                              The Navy said Phillips was freed at 7:19 p.m. local time. He was taken aboard the Norfolk, Virginia-based USS Bainbridge and then flown to the San Diego-based USS Boxer for the medical exam, 5th Fleet spokesman Lt. Nathan Christensen said.

                              'Resting comfortably'
                              Christensen said Phillips was now "resting comfortably." The USS Boxer was in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Somalia, Christensen said.

                              The U.S. did not say if Phillips, 53, of Underhill, Vermont, was receiving medical care because he had been injured or if he was being treated for exposure after his ordeal.

                              U.S. officials said a pirate who had been involved in negotiations to free Phillips but who was not on the lifeboat during the rescue was in military custody. FBI spokesman John Miller said that would change as the situation became "more of a criminal issue than a military issue."

                              Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said prosecutors were looking at "evidence and other issues" to determine whether to bring a case in the United States.

                              Maersk Line Limited President and CEO John Reinhart said in a news release that the U.S. government informed the company around 1:30 p.m. EDT Sunday that Phillips had been rescued. Reinhart said the company called Phillips' wife, Andrea, to tell her the news.

                              The U.S. official was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. A Pentagon spokesman had no immediate comment.

                              When Phillips' crew heard the news aboard their ship in the port of Mombasa, they placed an American flag over the rail of the top of the Maersk Alabama and whistled and pumped their fists in the air. Crew fired a bright red flare into the sky from the ship.

                              "We made it!" said crewman ATM Reza, pumping his fist in the air.

                              "He managed to be in a 120-degree oven for days, it's amazing," said another of about a dozen crew members who came out to talk to reporters. He said the crew found out the captain was released because one of the sailors had been talking to his wife on the phone.

                              'Our prayers have been answered'
                              Capt. Joseph Murphy, the father of second-in-command Shane Murphy, thanked Phillips for his bravery.

                              "Our prayers have been answered on this Easter Sunday. I have made it clear throughout this terrible ordeal that my son and our family will forever be indebted to Capt. Phillips for his bravery," Murphy said. "If not for his incredible personal sacrifice, this kidnapping and act of terror could have turned out much worse."

                              In the written statement, Murphy said both his family and Phillips' "can now celebrate a joyous Easter together."

                              Terry Aiken, 66, who lives across the street from the Phillips house, fought back tears as he reacted to the news.

                              "I'm very, very happy," Aiken said. "I can't be happier for him and his family."

                              A government official and others in Somalia with knowledge of the situation had reported hours earlier that negotiations for Phillips' release had broken down.

                              Talks to free him began Thursday with the captain of the USS Bainbridge talking to the pirates under instruction from FBI hostage negotiators on board the U.S. destroyer. The pirates had threatened to kill Phillips if attacked.

                              Within easy reach of the lifeboat
                              Three U.S. warships were within easy reach of the lifeboat on Saturday. The U.S. Navy had assumed the pirates would try to get their hostage to shore, where they can hide him on Somalia's lawless soil and be in a stronger position to negotiate a ransom.

                              Maersk Line said before news of the rescue broke that "the U.S. Navy had sight contact" of Phillips -- apparently when the pirates opened the hatches.

                              Before Phillips was freed, a pirate who said he was associated with the gang that held Phillips, Ahmed Mohamed Nur, told The Associated Press that the pirates had reported that "helicopters continue to fly over their heads in the daylight and in the night they are under the focus of a spotlight from a warship."
                              Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

                              He spoke by satellite phone from Harardhere, a port and pirate stronghold where a fisherman said helicopters flew over the town Sunday morning and a warship was looming on the horizon. The fisherman, Abdi Sheikh Muse, said that could be an indication the lifeboat may be near to shore.

                              The district commissioner of the central Mudug region said talks went on all day Saturday, with clan elders from his area talking by satellite telephone and through a translator with Americans, but collapsed late Saturday night.

                              Negotiations had broken down
                              "The negotiations between the elders and American officials have broken down. The reason is American officials wanted to arrest the pirates in Puntland and elders refused the arrest of the pirates," said the commissioner, Abdi Aziz Aw Yusuf. He said he organized initial contacts between the elders and the Americans.

                              Two other Somalis, one involved in the negotiations and another in contact with the pirates, also said the talks collapsed because of the U.S. insistence that the pirates be arrested and brought to justice.

                              Phillips' crew of 19 American sailors reached safe harbor in Kenya's northeast port of Mombasa on Saturday night under guard of U.S. Navy Seals, exhilarated by their freedom but mourning the absence of Phillips.

                              Crew members said their ordeal had begun with the Somali pirates hauling themselves up from a small boat bobbing on the surface of the Indian Ocean far below.

                              As the pirates shot in the air, Phillips told his crew to lock themselves in a cabin and surrendered himself to safeguard his men, crew members said.


                              Video
                              Friends 'ecstatic' over Phillips' rescue
                              April 12: Capt. James Staples, a friend of Capt. Richard Phillips, discusses how thankful he is to hear about the safe rescue of his comrade.

                              MSNBC
                              Phillips was then held hostage in an enclosed lifeboat that was closely watched by U.S. warships and a helicopter in an increasingly tense standoff. On Friday, the French navy freed a sailboat seized off Somalia last week by other pirates, but one of the five hostages was killed.

                              Phillips jumped out of the lifeboat Friday and tried to swim for his freedom but was recaptured when a pirate fired an automatic weapon at or near him, according to U.S. Defense Department officials speaking on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to talk about the unfolding operations.

                              Early Saturday, the pirates holding Phillips in the lifeboat fired a few shots at a small U.S. Navy vessel that had approached, a U.S. military official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

                              The official said the U.S. sailors did not return fire, the Navy vessel turned away and no one was hurt. He said the vessel had not been attempting a rescue. The pirates are believed armed with pistols and AK-47 assault rifles.

                              "When I spoke to the crew, they won't consider it done when they board a plane and come home," Maersk President John Reinhart said from Norfolk, Virginia before news of Phillips' rescue. "They won't consider it done until the captain is back, nor will we."

                              In Phillips' hometown, the Rev. Charles Danielson of the St. Thomas Church said before the news broke that the congregation would continue to pray for Phillips and his family, who are members, and he would encourage "people to find hope in the triumph of good over evil."
                              Randy = Ace ! - Warlab
                              Level II Volunteer FireFighter
                              Level I HazMat Technician
                              NYS EMT-B
                              Town of Mamaroneck Fire Dept.

                              sigpic




                              Bring On Project Reality 1.0!!!
                              RSS Feeds:Bamboo | | 9/11 - Never Forget |
                              Apophis - "TG was created to cater to a VERY specific type of gamer rather than trying to appeal to the greater gaming population.
                              Tactical Gamer is not mainstream.
                              We are not trying to attract mainstream gamers."

                              Comment

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