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  • Abortion

    A place to continue discussion from the healthcare thread. Start reading here for background:

    http://www.tacticalgamer.com/sandbox...ml#post1333280
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  • #2
    Re: Abortion

    Some religious folk assert that "life begins at conception". Check out what's involved in conception in animals:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conception_%28biology%29

    It's not an instantaneous thing. It's a process. So where in that process does the magic soul get inserted?
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Abortion

      The problem with anti abortion proposed laws is that they always forget to include exceptions for health of the mother, victims of rape and incest and therefore treat the mother as an incubator for the fetus once conceived because the fetus is more important than the mother.
      |TG-6th|Snooggums

      Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Abortion

        Originally posted by snooggums View Post
        The problem with anti abortion proposed laws is that they always forget to include exceptions for health of the mother, victims of rape and incest and therefore treat the mother as an incubator for the fetus once conceived because the fetus is more important than the mother.
        They don't forget, they just don't care. Or they care more about the fetus than they do those issues.
        Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
        - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
        - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
        - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
        - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
        - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
        - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Abortion

          Originally posted by El_Gringo_Grande View Post
          They don't forget, they just don't care. Or they care more about the fetus than they do those issues.
          Generally when asked directly about these issues I have seen the writers of the bills to say 'Well yeah those things should be allowed but they would be abused' and then not realize that the bills will be overturned just like all the previous bills because of not having those exceptions.
          |TG-6th|Snooggums

          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Abortion

            In a country where sexual assault can get you life in prison, but stuffing your newborn in a garbage can (killing it) after giving birth in a bathroom stall nets you 36 months... I find it kinda sick and twisted we're even having a "debate" about abortion.

            We cant even take care of our children once they're frakkin BORN in this country, so why should we be worrying (pretty much more than anything else it seems) about abortion?

            Here's a clue: fix healthcare (and lower infant mortality rates), fix education, and revisit our country's laws and THEN come talk to me about abortion.

            p.s.
            The above is assuming the country could even sustain the increased population Pro Life would cause - which it cant. The compromise? Require a permit to bear children, end of story - you do that and all your abortion worries go away.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Abortion

              Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
              Require a permit to bear children, end of story - you do that and all your abortion worries go away.

              There are so many cases here in the UK where I would love to see that. Now I know the liberals would cry "Human Rights Violation" and in a way of course they are right, but when I look at some people near me, for example a girl who left school at 15, no education. Criminal record for violence. Got pregnant by we think her BF, he is a genuinely nice guy but UBER niave, she cheats on him, has drug/drink binges, and her family are even worse. Has a baby, moved out into, get this, a 4 bedroom house in a nice area, destroyed the grounds it is on, had her dog taken off her for being dangerous, and now wants another baby 2 months after the last. Reason, she doesn't work, never has, and now never will because for the next 18 years she will have so many benefits coming in that she won't know what drug to spend the money on. Makes me sick to my very core. How to solve that?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Abortion

                It's not the liberals who'd cry over permitted pregnancy, it's the neo-cons.
                Dont worry though, you'll see it in America within your lifetime I guarantee you.

                Eh, permitted preganancy would also probably stop illegal immigration!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Abortion

                  Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
                  p.s.
                  The above is assuming the country could even sustain the increased population Pro Life would cause - which it cant. The compromise? Require a permit to bear children, end of story - you do that and all your abortion worries go away.
                  You can't legislate an action which two kids over the age of 12 can do with nothing but what God gave them. Further, when a woman gets pregnant without a license, what do we do with them? Force an abortion (invasive medical procedure) on them? Throw them in jail with actual violent offenders and waste money incarcerating them? Permits require money. Whether that money comes from fees or just taking off work and/or hiring a professional to handle the permit. It's going to cost.

                  Your compromise has the same effect illegal abortions do: it screws poor people while giving those with money a minor speed-bump to pass over.

                  As for my stance on abortion: the current laws seem pretty good to me. Most women are not allowed an abortion when the baby has a chance to make it on his/her own (no matter how slim), unless complications could lead to the death of both. Sounds pretty sane to me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Abortion

                    Originally posted by TheFeniX View Post
                    You can't legislate an action which two kids over the age of 12 can do with nothing but what God gave them. Further, when a woman gets pregnant without a license, what do we do with them? Force an abortion (invasive medical procedure) on them? Throw them in jail with actual violent offenders and waste money incarcerating them? Permits require money. Whether that money comes from fees or just taking off work and/or hiring a professional to handle the permit. It's going to cost.

                    Your compromise has the same effect illegal abortions do: it screws poor people while giving those with money a minor speed-bump to pass over.

                    As for my stance on abortion: the current laws seem pretty good to me. Most women are not allowed an abortion when the baby has a chance to make it on his/her own (no matter how slim), unless complications could lead to the death of both. Sounds pretty sane to me.
                    Sure you can. If you have a child illegally the punishment would be a Child Tax... instead of a credit (like we have now). If you cant pay the tax, that pretty much means you're probably unfit to raise a child... and it gets taken away and put in proper care. i.e. people who cant bear children but have the appropriate permit, etc.

                    It's win-win on all fronts. The only loss is an emotional one, which is selfish on the parent's part and the person should've thought of before having a child. (and I'm sick of people who use children as an emotional cruch... get a life! THEN have a kid)

                    Another HUGE problem in this country is locating "bad homes." We have all these services in place to monitor this, but no real laws to root out distressed kids. Permitted pregnancy helps solve this problem along with a multitude of others and saves everyone probably in the 100's of BILLIONS per year.

                    And what do you think happens with crime and education and even quality of life with permitted pregnancy? Hint: two go up and the other goes down.

                    Seriously, the benefits are staggering and too much not to consider (picture Planned Parenthood on steroids). In the end, the only viable defense against this logic is un-logic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Abortion

                      For the sake of argument, and setting aside Fenix's great points about the drawbacks of such a regulation, what would be the requirements to obtain a pregnancy permit? Criminal background? Income? China has a "one child period" law, although according to an article I read, young adults are now being permitted to have two children. Pressure to abort pregnancies, fines, and even forced sterilization accompany second and subsequent pregnancies of couples who already gave birth to a child.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Abortion

                        Its win-win? If you start charging parents more money because they had a child when they were 15, go on drug binges, and are otherwise completely financially incapable of caring for a child, you're going to get one sadly malnourished child. Now, if everyone decided not to have kids simply because it was illegal, you might be right.

                        Who decides who can and can't have kids in your utopia, by the way?
                        I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Abortion

                          Just like the Healthcare debate we forked off of I'm not sure how forced abortions even came up here but this thread is already uselessly derailed...

                          To try to get it back on track: A fetus is like the metamorphosis of a caterpillar to a butterfly, it is an ongoing process and there is not a single point where you say one stops and the other starts during the process. It is easy to either say it is when the cocoon is made, or when the butterfly exits. Prolifers want to legislate not killing the caterpillar in the cocoon and insist on calling it a butterfly.

                          Unfortunately for us the cocoon is a person too, so it isn't just as easy as saying all that matters is when the butterfly is a butterfly.

                          Really it comes down to the fetus being a potential person and the pregnant person is already a person and should therefore have the rights to make decisions about their own body up to the point that the fetus is born and becomes a baby. That is why it does matter whether the baby was born living in murder cases, because sometimes they are just stillborn because they are still potential people, but not yet born to be a person.
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Abortion

                            Originally posted by Gambit7 View Post
                            Sure you can. If you have a child illegally the punishment would be a Child Tax... instead of a credit (like we have now). If you cant pay the tax, that pretty much means you're probably unfit to raise a child... and it gets taken away and put in proper care. i.e. people who cant bear children but have the appropriate permit, etc.
                            Translation: Screw poor people. They are irresponsible and terrible people, or else they wouldn't be poor.

                            How much is this tax: $10? $100? $10,000?

                            So, I break my condom, get girlfriend pregnant. I now have to pay, what $1,000 on some tax set down by some rich jackoff whose never had to worry about money in his whole life.

                            I don't have $1,000 dollars and my girlfriend doesn't feel like being an incubator for a child she'll never get the chance to see again. I can't go to a real doctor, because we'll both get reported.

                            Your options are now either A. back-alley abortion or B. coat-hanger. Meanwhile, some skank whose parents have money gets knocked up, she goes to their private doctor and gets a script for the morning-after pill for "feminine problems."

                            Congratulations: it's now 1950 again.

                            I think people with money already have enough advantages over those without for the federal government to start writing "screw the poor" into law again.

                            And what do you think happens with crime and education and even quality of life with permitted pregnancy? Hint: two go up and the other goes down.
                            Uh, it stays the exact same or even gets worse as authorities use idiotic criteria to steal babies from "undesirables" and ship them away into orphanages. We can't get enough kids adopted right now without flooding the system with kids on some insane plan.

                            Seriously, the benefits are staggering and too much not to consider (picture Planned Parenthood on steroids). In the end, the only viable defense against this logic is un-logic.
                            I consider "sanity" a viable alternative.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Abortion

                              No, the options are either:
                              a) apply for the permit
                              b) abortion
                              c) child tax
                              d) adoption

                              And a pregnancy permit doesnt screw poor people, it helps them. Most low-income households are burdened with too many mouths to feed. If a system was in place to PUNISH irresponsible parenthood rather than REWARD it (like we have now), this wouldnt happen.

                              Look, I know it seems extreme... but my little "fantasyland" idea will be a reality in the near future whether you like it or not. I just prefer to level with myself now.

                              Back to "the poor." Some of you know I'm a fierce advocate for those less fortunate and tend to hate on the wealthy pretty vigorously. This is a system designed to help the less fortunate make proper decisions before they slip into a poverty they cant get out of. Even if an unplanned pregnancy occurs... at least an impoverished parent has a moral "escape route" via the legal system to help ease their conscience on making the right decision to either abort or give up the child to a better, more prepared family.

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