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  • Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6839310.ece

    Well I know a few people who will be breathing a sigh of relief on this.

    Over here, for many this was nothing to do with Iran, to do with Russia, and all to do with the arm flexing of Bush's administration.

    The Czechs I know have no great love for Russian thinking or policy (and I lived there so I met a few more than I know in the UK, and was in their culture and so got to know the drift well) to put it politely, but found this allowance of their Government to let the Bush administration place such a base there tantamount to supreme idiocy due to the real reasons the base was agreed upon, as they saw it (Bush + cronies = warmongering imperialist lying fool. Czech Government a bunch of suckups wanting something).

    I guess a few going through I.P. Pavlova to and from work will be feeling a bit more comfortable today.

    I am guessing it is the case in a few other places. Here in the UK I am happy anyway and think it shows Obamas' better thinking and holistic attitude. The only plus I can see of the Bush administration is that it did lead (and the subsequent history of the USA of people in its mindset) to force a more outward kind of thinking as displayed by Obama towards the rest of the world. Basically the Americans had to wake up; the lying became exposed on their doorstep. Even the Czechs had to agree with the Russians that they thought it arm flexing and could see why the Russians called out the Americans as the pot calling the kettle black. Of course the Russians would not back down, they are not fools. And they are Russian. I hope this creates a better air of seeking a better way of doing things in the world. Keep it up.

    I got to laugh at the UK Government now agreeing with Obama. I am sure they agreed with Bush. The more I think about it, the more I wish our guys were more American nowadays.

  • #2
    Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

    Bush era provocative acts against Russia need to come to an end, and old cold war strategies for that matter. Most informed Americans knew that this defense shield was intended to lower the Russian capability and had nothing to do with Iran. But Iran was the current "boogeyman" used by the Bush administration to justify this nonsense. The US lead expansion of NATO into former Soviet republics was seen as a threat to the Russians and caused the whole Georgia situation. The cold war is over, Russia is no threat to the US, if it ever was, and the US needs to stop this military agressiveness in eastern Europe. I mean does anyone really think that Russia is going to invade western Europe? So why the huge US military presence in Europe. We need to abolish NATO, or just drop our membership, and let the western European countries be responsible for their own security. I'm quite sure that they can afford to do this on their own. As the US reaches insolvency and bankruptcy its time to end the US military empire. It is way to costly in terms of money and lives, and also it breeds contempt for the US as we constantly meddle in foreign nations affairs.
    |TG-X| mp40x



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    • #3
      Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

      The "Georgia situation" was caused by Georgia invading a formerly-Georgian territory during the opening of the Beijing Olympics, an area of land now claimed as a protectorate by Russia.

      The bad part of this reorganization of the missile shield is that the governments of the Czech Republic and Poland hung their asses out in the breeze politically by agreeing to a US proposition that their populaces were opposed to. It may be tough to negotiate with them in the future.

      Also, the timing of the decision is pretty bad. Canceling the deal on the anniversary of the Soviet invasion into Poland? What kind of message is that? :P

      The Czechs and the Poles accepted this deal as defense against Russia (even though the Bush Administration always maintained that it was a shield against Iran). Tactically, it wouldn't have defended against diddly, but it was the message that counted. "Mess with us, you mess with our big brother the United States!" Russia is attempting to regain its influence in Eastern Europe, and they consider the threat very real. Military action? Probably not. But Russia has other ways at their disposal, such as shutting off the gas pipeline that feeds Ukraine (for example).

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      • #4
        Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

        A country has a right to defend itself. If Russia sees a missile shield as an act of aggression, then they are blind. Russia and the former Soviet Union, have too long bullied other countries. Then when these countries decide to stand up for themselves and get some protection, the Russians get all mad.

        You install a missile shield and we'll shoot missiles at you. What kind of moronic bs is that?

        I get tired of Russian aggression and wished we had pushed them out of eastern europe after ww2.

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        • #5
          Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

          But what is a "missile shield", if not more missiles? Many defensive systems can be used offensively, and it's this ambiguity that creates the tension.
          Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

          snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

          Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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          • #6
            Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

            Originally posted by mp40x View Post
            Bush era provocative acts against Russia need to come to an end, and old cold war strategies for that matter. Most informed Americans knew that this defense shield was intended to lower the Russian capability and had nothing to do with Iran. But Iran was the current "boogeyman" used by the Bush administration to justify this nonsense. The US lead expansion of NATO into former Soviet republics was seen as a threat to the Russians and caused the whole Georgia situation. The cold war is over, Russia is no threat to the US, if it ever was, and the US needs to stop this military agressiveness in eastern Europe. I mean does anyone really think that Russia is going to invade western Europe? So why the huge US military presence in Europe. We need to abolish NATO, or just drop our membership, and let the western European countries be responsible for their own security. I'm quite sure that they can afford to do this on their own. As the US reaches insolvency and bankruptcy its time to end the US military empire. It is way to costly in terms of money and lives, and also it breeds contempt for the US as we constantly meddle in foreign nations affairs.
            I dont necessarily disagree with any point you made in particular here, but following your logic, why stop here? Is WW2 over yet, can we pull the 100,000 troops out of Japan and Germany? The Korean war technically has never ended, yet all our allies there except S.Korea are gone, can we make like our European brethren and pull out of there as well? None of those were specifically "Bush era policies" but isn't it time for them to end following your logic?

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            • #7
              Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

              Originally posted by Gillespie View Post
              The "Georgia situation" was caused by Georgia invading a formerly-Georgian territory during the opening of the Beijing Olympics, an area of land now claimed as a protectorate by Russia.
              Yes, but when a nation state, such as Russia, makes any move they factor in all their interests militarily, economically, and politically. So their decision to invade was multifaceted at the very least.
              Originally posted by Gillespie View Post
              but it was the message that counted. "Mess with us, you mess with our big brother the United States!" Russia is attempting to regain its influence in Eastern Europe, and they consider the threat very real.
              Yea and that worked out so well for Georgia? We propped up Georgia and Saakashvili. He thought the US had his back. We gave them advisors and money and told them to stand up to Russia. This was a huge miscalculation in US foreign policy. This is Russia's part of the world. The US has invaded countries close to our border several times, Panama and Haiti for example. We have routinely toppled democratically elected goverments in Central and South America as a matter of policy. Watch this outstanding documentary by John Pilger. The War on Democracy that details these events. We can talk down Russia all we want, but the US engages in the same tactics as other nations we condemn.

              Originally posted by deathknight View Post
              A country has a right to defend itself. If Russia sees a missile shield as an act of aggression, then they are blind.
              Would you not see a Russian missle shield in Central America as a threat to the US defense capability? Its the same thing. When we do it, its ok. When others do it, its wrong and must be stopped. Let the EU deal with Russia.
              Originally posted by deathknight View Post
              I get tired of Russian aggression and wished we had pushed them out of eastern europe after ww2.
              So we should have turned our guns on Russia after WW2? Then millions more would die in a war fought for what. To free the world from Russian arrogance? I think not.
              Originally posted by Morganan View Post
              I dont necessarily disagree with any point you made in particular here, but following your logic, why stop here? Is WW2 over yet, can we pull the 100,000 troops out of Japan and Germany? The Korean war technically has never ended, yet all our allies there except S.Korea are gone, can we make like our European brethren and pull out of there as well? None of those were specifically "Bush era policies" but isn't it time for them to end following your logic?
              It is time to end the US military presence throughout the world. By some estimates there are 1000 US bases worldwide. This is not a democracy, this is an aggressive military empire.
              II. More than 1000 US Bases and/or Military Installations

              The main sources of information on these military installations (e.g. C. Johnson, the NATO Watch Committee, the International Network for the Abolition of Foreign Military Bases) reveal that the US operates and/or controls between 700 and 800 military bases Worldwide.

              In this regard, Hugh d’Andrade and Bob Wing's 2002 Map 1 entitled "U.S. Military Troops and Bases around the World, The Cost of 'Permanent War'", confirms the presence of US military personnel in 156 countries.

              The US Military has bases in 63 countries. Brand new military bases have been built since September 11, 2001 in seven countries.

              In total, there are 255,065 US military personnel deployed Worldwide.

              These facilities include a total of 845,441 different buildings and equipments. The underlying land surface is of the order of 30 million acres. According to Gelman, who examined 2005 official Pentagon data, the US is thought to own a total of 737 bases in foreign lands. Adding to the bases inside U.S. territory, the total land area occupied by US military bases domestically within the US and internationally is of the order of 2,202,735 hectares, which makes the Pentagon one of the largest landowners worldwide (Gelman, J., 2007).

              The Worldwide Network of US Military Bases
              |TG-X| mp40x



              Register for the Forums! | Get on Teamspeak! | Play Squad! | Join Discord! | Support Tactical Gamer!

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              • #8
                Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                Originally posted by deathknight View Post
                A country has a right to defend itself. If Russia sees a missile shield as an act of aggression, then they are blind.
                You're right until MAD comes into play. If my main defense is my sure knowledge that if you attack me, you're dying as well, and then you take very strong actions to remove my ability to kill you, you're directly removing my one weapon and simultaneously, my one defense. Building a missile shield is a very hostile act.
                I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                • #9
                  Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                  Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                  So we should have turned our guns on Russia after WW2? Then millions more would die in a war fought for what. To free the world from Russian arrogance? I think not.
                  Millions died anyway. I find the sacrifice of the many who died in WW2 dishonored by the fact we let Stalin keep all the land he took in WW2 especially after he invaded Poland and Finland at the start.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                    Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                    You're right until MAD comes into play. If my main defense is my sure knowledge that if you attack me, you're dying as well, and then you take very strong actions to remove my ability to kill you, you're directly removing my one weapon and simultaneously, my one defense. Building a missile shield is a very hostile act.
                    Humanity invented a way to instantly destroy itself with nukes, isn't it fair for humanity to invent a way to defend itself from them as well?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                      Originally posted by Morganan View Post
                      Humanity invented a way to instantly destroy itself with nukes, isn't it fair for humanity to invent a way to defend itself from them as well?
                      Absolutely, and I'd be all for it. The problem comes when one side has the miracle defense and the other side doesn't, especially if they're both engaging in bullheaded sabre-rattling and overly testosterone-fueled machismo posturing.
                      I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                        Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                        Absolutely, and I'd be all for it. The problem comes when one side has the miracle defense and the other side doesn't, especially if they're both engaging in bullheaded sabre-rattling and overly testosterone-fueled machismo posturing.
                        How exactly are we stopping them from having their own "miracle defense"? It's a distastefull, but inevitable progression that has been there as long back as wearing armor to help cut down on arrow and sword casualties. Someone creates an offensive ability which everyone else copies, then someone creates a decent defense against that offense, so then someone creates a new offense that negates that defense, and the circle keeps going...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                          Originally posted by Morganan View Post
                          How exactly are we stopping them from having their own "miracle defense"? It's a distastefull, but inevitable progression that has been there as long back as wearing armor to help cut down on arrow and sword casualties. Someone creates an offensive ability which everyone else copies, then someone creates a decent defense against that offense, so then someone creates a new offense that negates that defense, and the circle keeps going...
                          Last time Russia put a missile defense shield in our backyard? Or worked on developing one?
                          I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Obama scraps Star Wars and gambles on Russia

                            I took your initial post that I quoted as if to say, "we dont need a missile defense anywhere". I am not saying in any shape or form I agree with the policy of placing those bases there, but I do agree with the policy of inventing a missile defense that does work and could defend us from that type of attack.

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