Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

    Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication
    Radley Balko | September 28, 2009

    Last March, Sally Harpold, an Indiana grandmother of triplets, bought two boxes of cold medication in less than a week. Together, the two boxes contained 3.6 grams of pseudoephedrine, putting her in violation of the state's methamphetamine-fighting law, which forbids the purchase of more than three grams by one person in a seven-day period.

    Police came to Harpold's home, arrested and handcuffed her, and booked her in a Vermillion County jail. No one believes Harpold was making meth or aiding anyone who was. But local authorities aren't apologizing for her arrest.

    "I don't want to go there again," [Vermillion County Prosecutor Nina] Alexander told the Tribune-Star, recalling how the manufacture and abuse of methamphetamine ravaged the tiny county and its families.

    While the law was written with the intent of stopping people from purchasing large quantities of drugs to make methamphetamine, the law does not say the purchase must be made with the intent to make meth.

    "The law does not make this distinction," Alexander said...

    Just as with any law, the public has the responsibility to know what is legal and what is not, and ignorance of the law is no excuse, the prosecutor said.

    "I'm simply enforcing the law as it was written," Alexander said...

    It is up to customers to pay attention to their purchase amounts, and to check medication labels, Alexander said.

    "If you take these products, you ought to know what's in them," she said.

    Harpold's photo was put on the front page of the local paper as part of an article about the arrest of 17 people in a "drug sweep." Alexander has generously allowed Harpold to enter a deferral program. If she commits no crimes in the next 30 days, her arrest will be wiped from her record. She'll still have to pay court costs and attorney fees.

    I'll leave it to Vigo County Sheriff Jon Marvel to (unintentionally) put an exclamation point on the absurdity.

    "Sometimes mistakes happen," Marvel said. "It's unfortunate. But for the good of everyone, the law was put into effect.

    "I feel for her, but if she could go to one of the area hospitals and see a baby born to a meth-addicted mother …"

    Because clearly the best way to prevent meth-addicted babies is to arrest women who buy cold medication for their grandchildren.
    Well I fell much safer knowing that this criminal has been taught a lesson. The lesson being, if your family is sick then you just have to let them suffer the sickness rather than buy too much cold medicine for them. We all have to do are part to fight the drug problem, sometimes that means letting your children run a fever so that meth wont be produced. You know, the whole greater good concept.
    |TG-X| mp40x



    Register for the Forums! | Get on Teamspeak! | Play Squad! | Join Discord! | Support Tactical Gamer!


  • #2
    Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

    sometimes there are no words to describe the abyssmal stupididty of the human race.
    |TG-Irr|Avengingllama
    I used to eat paint chips. Now I just drink the paint because I couldn't find a salsa that went well with the chips and they were dry =)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

      A little longer, but I skipped all the "OMG! Government bad!" sites trying to track down the story.

      Originally posted by Tribune Star
      Wabash Valley woman didn’t realize second cold medicine purchase violated drug laws
      By Lisa Trigg
      The Tribune-Star

      CLINTON — When Sally Harpold bought cold medicine for her family back in March, she never dreamed that four months later she would end up in handcuffs.

      Now, Harpold is trying to clear her name of criminal charges, and she is speaking out in hopes that a law will change so others won’t endure the same embarrassment she still is facing.

      “This is a very traumatic experience,” Harpold said.

      Harpold is a grandmother of triplets who bought one box of Zyrtec-D cold medicine for her husband at a Rockville pharmacy. Less than seven days later, she bought a box of Mucinex-D cold medicine for her adult daughter at a Clinton pharmacy, thereby purchasing 3.6 grams total of pseudoephedrine in a week’s time.

      Those two purchases put her in violation of Indiana law 35-48-4-14.7, which restricts the sale of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, or PSE, products to no more than 3.0 grams within any seven-day period.

      When the police came knocking at the door of Harpold’s Parke County residence on July 30, she was arrested on a Vermillion County warrant for a class-C misdemeanor, which carries a sentence of up to 60 days in jail and up to a $500 fine. But through a deferral program offered by Vermillion County Prosecutor Nina Alexander, the charge could be wiped from Harpold’s record by mid-September.

      Harpold’s story is one that concerns some law-abiding citizens who fear that innocent people will get mistakenly caught in the net of meth abuse roundups.

      But the flip side of the story comes from the law enforcement arena, which is battling a resurgence in methamphetamine production in the Wabash Valley.

      As the 12th-smallest county in the state, Vermillion County ranked as the state’s fifth-largest producer of methamphetamine just a few years ago.

      “I don’t want to go there again,” Alexander told the Tribune-Star, recalling how the manufacture and abuse of methamphetamine ravaged the tiny county and its families.

      While the law was written with the intent of stopping people from purchasing large quantities of drugs to make methamphetamine, the law does not say the purchase must be made with the intent to make meth.

      “The law does not make this distinction,” Alexander said.

      If the law said “with intent to manufacture methamphetamine,” no one could be arrested until it was proven that the drug actually was used to make meth, the prosecutor said.

      And that certainly wasn’t the intent of the law, either. It was written to limit access to the key ingredient in meth — pseudoephedrine — and thereby to stop the clandestine “mom and pop” meth labs that were cooking drugs throughout the area.

      Just as with any law, the public has the responsibility to know what is legal and what is not, and ignorance of the law is no excuse, the prosecutor said.

      “I’m simply enforcing the law as it was written,” Alexander said.

      Pharmacies post “Meth Watch” signs, alerting customers that their purchases of drugs containing ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are being monitored. Pharmacies also are required to submit a list of purchase records to police, who then examine the lists for violations of the law.

      It is up to customers to pay attention to their purchase amounts, and to check medication labels, Alexander said.

      “If you take these products, you ought to know what’s in them,” she said.

      While many people know that Sudafed, Actifed and Claritin-D contain pseudoephedrine, there are many more over-the-counter medications that also contain the key meth ingredient.

      Ron Vencel, a pharmacist with JR Pharmacies in Terre Haute, said consumers should check all drug labels, and notes that any drug that has a “D” after it, for “decongestant,” has a likelihood of containing pseudoephedrine, or PSE.

      Vencel has worked with area police to help curb the sale of over-the-counter pseudoephedrine to people buying it as a meth ingredient, and he offered insight into some of the purchasers.

      As authorities and retailers have limited the sale of PSE, some meth-makers have resorted to asking their relatives and friends, who are unaware of the intended use of the product, to go buy the cold medicine. That has put some innocent people unwittingly into the cycle of meth production. And a buyer may call five or six different people to go buy the cold medicine, thereby circumventing the law.

      Harpold, who is employed at the Rockville Correctional Facility for women, feels her reputation has been damaged by the arrest, and that she has been wrongly labeled as someone who makes meth.

      Her police mug shot ran on the front page of her local newspaper, she wrote, in a letter to the Tribune-Star, “with an article entitled, ‘17 Arrested in Drug Sweep.’”

      “That is something I have never been involved in,” she said of meth.

      When she told her co-workers about the arrest, she said, they could not believe it. They have been supportive of her, she said, and other friends in the community have tried to help stop the misinformation that has spread because of the arrest.

      The morning she was arrested, Harpold and her husband were awakened by police officers banging on the front door of their home at Midway along U.S. 36. She was allowed to get dressed, and was then taken in handcuffs to the Clinton Police Department, where she was questioned about her cold medicine purchases. She was later booked into jail, and her husband had to pay $300 bail to get her released.

      Harpold said she did go talk to the prosecutor about the situation, and Alexander offered her the deferral program, in which Harpold is required to pay the court costs, abide by all laws and not be arrested for 30 days. At the end of 30 days, the class-C misdemeanor will be erased from her record.

      Alexander said she is working with Harpold about the charge, but the prosecutor asserts that Harpold did break the law with her purchases and is being held accountable.

      “I do want people to know that we will check the pharmacy records and we will prosecute people who violate this law,” Alexander said.

      Vermillion County Sheriff Bob Spence said he also is willing to help Harpold overcome the negative situation.

      “If there’s any way we can help her, we will,” Spence said.

      He explained that the process leading to Harpold’s arrest involved an officer checking area pharmacy purchase records, and coming up with about 40 purchases that violated the law.

      That information was then taken to the prosecutor, whose staff drew up the probable cause affidavits to be filed in court. A judge then found probable cause and issued arrest warrants, and the sheriff’s department is required by statute to see that the warrants are served.

      Harpold was not arrested by Vermillion County officers, Spence stressed, since her residence is in Parke County. But she was returned to Clinton where she was questioned and processed.

      Spence agreed with pharmacist Vencel’s scenario that the people making the meth often send other people to buy the medicine. And Vigo County Sheriff Jon Marvel, who recently renewed efforts to track pseudoephedrine sales in the Wabash Valley, understands Harpold’s arrest is embarrassing for her.

      “Sometimes mistakes happen,” Marvel said. “It’s unfortunate. But for the good of everyone, the law was put into effect.

      “I feel for her, but if she could go to one of the area hospitals and see a baby born to a meth-addicted mother …”

      For now, Harpold is hoping to raise public awareness so others will avoid the stress she is going through. She has written to state lawmakers and to U.S. Sens. Richard Lugar and Evan Bayh and Congressman Brad Ellsworth about changing the law.

      So far, only Lugar has responded to her letter, she said, but she will continue to pursue the issue.

      “I just don’t want this to happen to other people.”



      Lisa Trigg can be reached at (812) 231-4254 or [email protected].
      I seem to be poking a lot of holes (or at least fun at) people who post stories and then take an adamant stance against the authority portrayed within. Funny how that seems to be turning out.

      PSE procurement limitations and regulations are common in counties with problems related to meth. Since the article states the county is the 12th smallest in the state, but the 5th largest producer of meth its safe to say they have a problem. Such laws are generally clearly stated or enforced first at the pharmacy level (all PSE drugs are purchased by request to the pharmacy and a disclaimer from the pharmacist that purchasing excessive amounts could be prosecute). Now I'm curious to know if the safe guards in place in my pharmacies are in place where she got her drugs. If that level of enforcement fails then purchase checks (pay by cash and without club cards if you want no record of the transaction BTW) over a period of time general fall into place.

      Going on a bit of a tangent here, but something in the opening post stuck in my maw and became hard to swallow.
      Originally posted by mp40x View Post
      The lesson being, if your family is sick then you just have to let them suffer the sickness rather than buy too much cold medicine for them. We all have to do are part to fight the drug problem, sometimes that means letting your children run a fever so that meth wont be produced.
      If you are buying medication with pseudoephedrine because your child or family has a fever: STOP, put the medicine down, then consult a professional or someone more knowledgeable about what should be administered before giving anything anymore. Pseudoephedrine is a decongestant that does nothing for fevers, but is found in 'cold cocktails' like Dayquil or other 'all symptoms' treatments. It is also an accelerant and if taken over the recommended dosage can cause complications such as rapid heart rate, fatigue, and tachycardia.

      Personally I can't stand the stuff so my doctor warned me off it unless I want my heart to explode. While a stuffy nose is irritating, it is no where as serious as a fever. I'd rather suffer through a stuffy nose than have my pulse jump to 186 beats per minute again which is a slight bit more uncomfortable. As the article says ignorance of what you put in your body is not a valid excuse. It hasn't been since the spike of deaths in children due to overdosing on medicine a few years back that led to a lot of children cocktails being pulled from the shelves.

      Back to the story at hand and off tangent.

      The law is valid.
      Leaving off the 'intent to produce meth' is a very important part of the law as explained by the officials in the full article. A lot of PSE is procured through third parties indirectly associated with the production in a daisy chain formation. They ask friends who then ask relatives and other friends to buy PSE products as a favor. They then amass a large stock of PSE without doing the purchasing themselves and then pass it on to the manufacturing. By stopping all large PSE purchases and tracking sales they can then throttle, but not completely kill, PSE stockpiling.

      The response from the LEOs was appropriate.
      Once noting an illegal purchase of PSE medicine they took their evidence to the prosecutor who then took it to a judge who then issued a warrant. The arrest was made and all dignity was afforded the suspect since she was allowed to get changed and escorted to station where she was questioned. You can argue that the 'in handcuffs' part was excessive, but then you'd be arguing the against the operating procedures of the officers when serving an arrest warrant to a potentially dangerous subject. She did violate a law that the article says was clearly posted at the pharmacies. When determined that she was not part of any meth operation a deal was struck with the prosecutor to have the misdemeanor forgiven as long as she doesn't repeat her mistake.

      The response from the media was INAPPROPRIATE.
      The first article which was truncated to make a point not withstanding, the fact that the local newspaper posted mugshots and a misleading headline is the main sticking point with this story. Couldn't find any additional information on the subject matter, but I don't even think a follow up in the paper or an apology/retraction was printed. If the story never took place and all this happened behind closed doors then there would be no outrage over proper police actions to prevent meth production.


      Going a bit more into speculation, I guess the LEOs in the area are casting their net trying to clean up the streets. Arresting all violators of the PSE laws means they can take people in for questioning. If they have nothing to do with meth there is a process to have the charge stricken from the record and they leave better educated with a new respect for signs clearly stated in windows about the law. If they do it again then they are either monumentally stupid or have information about possibly illegal activities and get no sympathy from anyone (least of all me). If they are picked up and DO have a relation to meth then the police have a chance to flip them on the production side and break up a meth factory. A chance, even a slim one, is always better than none at all.
      My sanity is not in question...
      It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


      Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

        those decongestants are not really recommended for kids anymore. Fever are not bad, its your body's way of fighting cold, that said if the fever is terrible some regular children's tylenol (Acetaminophen) is best.



        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          A little longer, but I skipped all the "OMG! Government bad!" sites trying to track down the story.
          Goverment is bad in many cases. Especially in the United States. As George Washington so aptly stated; "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          I seem to be poking a lot of holes (or at least fun at) people who post stories and then take an adamant stance against the authority portrayed within. Funny how that seems to be turning out.
          I always take an adamant stance against authority because authority, or goverment, only serves itself and its own intersts. And, hardly ever seems to protect the rights of the common citizen as it should.
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          PSE procurement limitations and regulations are common in counties with problems related to meth. Since the article states the county is the 12th smallest in the state, but the 5th largest producer of meth its safe to say they have a problem. Such laws are generally clearly stated or enforced first at the pharmacy level (all PSE drugs are purchased by request to the pharmacy and a disclaimer from the pharmacist that purchasing excessive amounts could be prosecute). Now I'm curious to know if the safe guards in place in my pharmacies are in place where she got her drugs. If that level of enforcement fails then purchase checks (pay by cash and without club cards if you want no record of the transaction BTW) over a period of time general fall into place.
          I know that in Kentucky, where I lived for awhile, you cannot purchase cold medicine without a valid drivers license. As I was asked for I.D. several times when I purchashed various cold remedies. So there is always a record of the transaction in that state. I'm sure it varies from state to state.

          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          If you are buying medication with pseudoephedrine because your child or family has a fever: STOP, put the medicine down, then consult a professional or someone more knowledgeable about what should be administered before giving anything anymore. Pseudoephedrine is a decongestant that does nothing for fevers, but is found in 'cold cocktails' like Dayquil or other 'all symptoms' treatments. It is also an accelerant and if taken over the recommended dosage can cause complications such as rapid heart rate, fatigue, and tachycardia.
          First of all, my statement about children was done in pure sarcasm. I surely don't advocate children taking medications that are not recommended for them. But since you took my comments literally, the grandmother was buying cold medicine for her husband and kids, its assumed that they are not adolecents at this point as they have children of their own. The article you quoted refers to them as "adult children". Therefore, your attempt to discredit the post on that basis is baseless.
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          The law is valid.
          Leaving off the 'intent to produce meth' is a very important part of the law as explained by the officials in the full article. A lot of PSE is procured through third parties indirectly associated with the production in a daisy chain formation. They ask friends who then ask relatives and other friends to buy PSE products as a favor. They then amass a large stock of PSE without doing the purchasing themselves and then pass it on to the manufacturing. By stopping all large PSE purchases and tracking sales they can then throttle, but not completely kill, PSE stockpiling.
          The law is not valid and should be repealed. It leaves to much power in the hands of law enforcement as so many laws do. Innocent people are being carted away to jail under the suspicion of producing meth. As I have said before, its like minority report for the police. You should not be arrested merely under the suspicion of commiting a crime.
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          The response from the LEOs was appropriate.
          Once noting an illegal purchase of PSE medicine they took their evidence to the prosecutor who then took it to a judge who then issued a warrant. The arrest was made and all dignity was afforded the suspect since she was allowed to get changed and escorted to station where she was questioned. You can argue that the 'in handcuffs' part was excessive, but then you'd be arguing the against the operating procedures of the officers when serving an arrest warrant to a potentially dangerous subject. She did violate a law that the article says was clearly posted at the pharmacies. When determined that she was not part of any meth operation a deal was struck with the prosecutor to have the misdemeanor forgiven as long as she doesn't repeat her mistake.
          There is nothing dignified about going to jail where there are real criminals. Especially if you are an elderly grandmother who has never been there before, and in reality had done nothing wrong except break some draconian drug law. You make it sound like they did her a favor by dropping the charges.
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          The response from the media was INAPPROPRIATE.
          The first article which was truncated to make a point not withstanding, the fact that the local newspaper posted mugshots and a misleading headline is the main sticking point with this story. Couldn't find any additional information on the subject matter, but I don't even think a follow up in the paper or an apology/retraction was printed. If the story never took place and all this happened behind closed doors then there would be no outrage over proper police actions to prevent meth production.
          This I agree with somewhat. Anymore these days the news media is nothing more than a mouthpiece, or propaganda wing, of the goverment and authorities. It doesn't take much to ruin your reputation, and these kind of headlines are rapant in the news throughout America. They take away from the one thing someone who is charged with a crime is supposed to have, the presumption of innocence.
          Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
          Going a bit more into speculation, I guess the LEOs in the area are casting their net trying to clean up the streets. Arresting all violators of the PSE laws means they can take people in for questioning. If they have nothing to do with meth there is a process to have the charge stricken from the record and they leave better educated with a new respect for signs clearly stated in windows about the law. If they do it again then they are either monumentally stupid or have information about possibly illegal activities and get no sympathy from anyone (least of all me). If they are picked up and DO have a relation to meth then the police have a chance to flip them on the production side and break up a meth factory. A chance, even a slim one, is always better than none at all.
          This "process" you make note of is asinine to say the least. If a person is arrested under this statute they are taken to jail, forced to make bond, hire an attorney. Maybe they cannot afford to make bond, then what happens? The possibilities are endless. This could destroy a persons life, causing them to loose their job, home, car.

          This kind of attitude is one of the problems in America. We as a nation simply have no empathy, or sympathy, for other people. What would be your stance on this issue if it had happened to someone in your family? Would they "get no sympathy" as you put it. I would assume not.
          Originally posted by machowner View Post
          those decongestants are not really recommended for kids anymore. Fever are not bad, its your body's way of fighting cold, that said if the fever is terrible some regular children's tylenol (Acetaminophen) is best.
          I quite understand this, my comment about letting your child run a fever was just sarcasm as I stated above.
          |TG-X| mp40x



          Register for the Forums! | Get on Teamspeak! | Play Squad! | Join Discord! | Support Tactical Gamer!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

            Now we're getting somewhere! Sorry if there was a bit of confusion with my initial response. The opening post didn't really leave much to go on since there were only two parts.

            The first being an 'sensationalist' article from an edited and biased source.
            The second being 'sarcasm' without any real merit of debate except to incite a reaction when taken with the first.

            So I just poked at both with a more complete article to stand against the edited one and some comment on the situation since that's what the topic of the thread seems to be about. ^_^

            The problem with "OMG! Government BAD!" sites aren't their premise (limited government) its that they tend to coach issues and topics towards the lowest denominators. They expect people to be idiots and so portray the world as full of idiots where idiotic actions with consequences are somehow right on your doorstep. Some even go further and try to be sensationalist and nit pick at topics till it looks like "THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!" and leave blinders on in regards to the deeper meaning behind it.

            That said, there are some very good 'watchdog' sites that look out for excessive authority. Though since they aren't very sensationalist they tend to fly under the radar of most. Lovely thing about TG and the Sandbox is eventually some of those articles pop up and stir some interesting things.

            There is a loophole in your argument against government you know. The 'common' isn't very common unless you are uncommon. I left out 'citizen' because protection is expanded to participants and not only citizens of the process. If you want to ignore signs and indicators that you should not do something that is your choice. If you should ignore warnings and precautions a second, third, fourth, and any other additional times, then don't act like a hurt victim when the consequences to the actions generating the warnings fall upon you.

            I would like to think I'm not an idiot. I would like to also think that the actions of my fellow man and woman are also not driven by complete idiocy but by some sense of logic, knowledge, understanding, and reason. I would also hope that it doesn't take electrocution to teach them not to stick shiney objects into light sockets if there is a sign above said socket in 6 different languages saying "DO NOT STICK SHINEY OBJECT IN SOCKET! HAZARDOUS TO HEALTH". While I would like to hope that, I know there are some people who will get electrocuted for doing aforementioned action just because they are told not to or because they felt like doing so anyways. If the 'common' denominator is people who stick shiney objects in light sockets and then get electrocuted then I pity the direction the world is taking.

            My empathy and stance towards the actions of others has a two part conditional to it:
            1) What would I do and feel in that situation
            2) What are the circumstances around the situation that would change how I would react

            The first because it is a necessary condition to empathy and the second so I don't fall into the lamented role of 'armchair hindsight'. Armchair hindsight would be a reaction from a point of view in an environment different from where the event took place. An example of such would be that a person playing a WW2 RTS game may think its a valid tactic to rush a machine gun nest if the ends justifies the means, but a perspective flipped to a real life person in a squad doing the rushing would produce an opinion dramatically different. If the environment of the situation is greatly different from my own, then the changes in my response have to be adjusted accordingly.

            I'm meandering a bit but its all related to the 'personal' nature of these topics. Since I'd like to think I'm not an idiot and I like to empathize with some of these situations that could reportedly happen to me I tend to be skeptical of those opinions. Mostly because upon reflection I realize that it can't really happen to me because I could never imagine myself acting that stupid in the first place. When people say that it could happen to them I'll politely smile and not refute them because they are saying they would willingly do something stupid and are afraid of the consequences. A paradox in itself because if they are afraid of the consequences then they would never willingly do the action that would garner it. So therefore they are unafraid of the consequences and are acting in a manner that would cause them thereby making their statement a lie and their actions purposeful, or they are stupid beyond my ability to comprehend because they cannot make a logical cause and effect deduction.

            Lets step away from my stance on sweeping generalizations that society is doomed for a while and redirect towards the article.

            The environment where this incident took place is seeing a resurgence of meth production and crime causing the community to react to try to stem it. Since the jurisdiction of the law is localized around this fact then any arguments to its validity should also take this into considering. Unknown to us is if the judge and prosecution threw out such cases if they are not in high meth trafficking areas. I'd assume so based on the difference in numbers of cases brought to light and cases prosecuted though. If over 40 cases of illegal procurement of PSE are identified and only 17 are reportedly prosecuted by the local paper then that means possibly 23 were thrown out on their merits. That's an assumption, however, and there are a number of other possible reason of which I'm sure some people will assume the worst. However, that means that for 17 of at least 40 cases there was sufficient probable cause for a prosecution to push forwards a case and a judge to sign a warrant.

            You say that the law is invalid and should be repealed because innocent people are being arrested for suspicion of meth production. There were 17 prosecuted cases in that area and 1 sensationalist case brought to light. What of the other 16? If all 17 cases fell apart then there would be a far greater outcry. I'd suspect the local paper would've printed a retraction if multiple people were picked up by mistake and proven innocent, but I've heard no word of such a publication. Of course that doesn't say much because I've also heard nothing about the local news printing a response to the 1 faulty case that is waved around so much. So there is 1 'innocent' person and 16 possibles. Of course, she isn't really innocent since she broke the law and her defense is ignorance. If you buy an illegal amount of PSE from places where there are signs clearly posted warning you against buying such amounts then you are as guilty as going 100 MPH after passing a speed limit sign saying 65.

            How common is 'common' in this case by the way? A quick look shows that Wabash County in Indiana had a population in 2000 of 34,960. If the population stayed the same that means out of the 34,960 people there were at least 40 cases of PSE purchases over the limit and 17 prosecutions of said cases. I'd like to think 'common' is not 0.0486% or roughly 1 in 2,500 people.

            There is nothing dignified in going to jail, but there are even less dignified methods to go about doing so. The police did not break down her door and search/seize the residence on suspicion of cooking meth. The police did not handcuff her and drag her out the door in her nighties to be thrown into the back of a police car and unceremoniously dragged off to be charged. They allowed her what dignity they could while being arrested and what little dignity awarded is dignity you still have.

            I'm not going to even touch your argument against the media because it is self defeating for your own position. If the media cannot be trusted and is only a mouth piece for propaganda then the article (a piece of media) you base this whole situation around is faulty and all subsequent arguments would also be faulty and baseless propaganda.

            The law in this case is harsh, but hardly draconian and your reaction to the penalties are also overstated. If convicted of the misdemeanor then the penalty is a $500 fine and 60 days in jail or payment of bail and 30 days probation. In this case the bail was $300 and so the most of the jail she saw was the holding area as bail was paid and released. Bail, by the way, is mutually exclusive with jail. If you pay bail you do not stay in jail, if you do not pay bail you stay in jail till your hearing. You don't do both and if you have in the past then you've been swindled. Since the option of probation is always on the table that means jail time is actually limited to a few hours at most because you will be released for probation anyways and the most time you will spend is if the docket is over flowing and your case has to be seen the next day. Hiring a lawyer, while nice, seems to also be mostly unnecessary because there is a standing deal on the table to 'not do it again and all is forgiven'. As such having a lawyer to try and cut you a better deal is all you can do and having all charges dropped while keeping out of jail after a fine is probably the best you're going to get anyways. As for not being able to make bond? Unless you're a flight risk I find that highly unlikely. There are a number of bondsmen around that will post your bond for a fraction of the amount if you don't have the $300. Realistically you should just post the bond yourself because the entire amount is returned as long as you don't skip out on any court dates. Bail and Bond are only forfeit if you 'skip bail' and don't show up for court after all. Misdemeanors are also not felonies which can cause you those large problems. The fact that it is a misdemeanor is irrelevant anyhow because the charge is stricken from the record if you don't repeat the offense over a period of time.

            Again, the process put in place is sufficient to deal with these cases and if everything happened privately then there never would've been an issue at all. You seem to be misdirecting your outrage from the media that put her mugshot in the paper and publicized the incident at the institution that has tried to trivialize the inconvenience to people who aren't related to meth production to something along the lines of a traffic ticket for speeding.

            That may seem like a silly analogy, but it actually fits in this circumstance. A limit was place on PSE purchases and public notice was placed on signs clearly visible at the pharmacies. She went over that limit and was subsequently arrested with bail set at $300. A limit is place on speed while driving and public notice is placed on signs clearly visible on the side of the road. If you go over the limit you are 'arrested' and written a ticket with bail set on recognizance (you sign the ticket and are released). Both can be contested and both can be stricken from the record. Of course it seems to be a lot harder to protest the traffic ticket then the drug procurement violation, but then again you do have a higher bail amount.
            My sanity is not in question...
            It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


            Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

              She bought two over the counter legal medicines, and four months later she was arrested, had her picture printed on a cover story for people busted in a drug sweep and has to pay court costs.

              This law is stupid, is punishing an innocent person and would not have stopped any meth production because nothing happened for FOUR months. The police get to pick and choose whether to press charges on many other crimes, their pressing of this one on this person is an example of what is wrong with our system.

              And while ignorance of the law may not be a defense, there is no way that the enforcers of the law can understand the laws, much less should anyone else be expected to. This is a great example of bad laws punishing the wrong people and the enforcers trolling for publicity about drug enforcement which is yet another negative side effect of the war on drugs.
              |TG-6th|Snooggums

              Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                The first being an 'sensationalist' article from an edited and biased source.
                The second being 'sarcasm' without any real merit of debate except to incite a reaction when taken with the first.

                So I just poked at both with a more complete article to stand against the edited one and some comment on the situation since that's what the topic of the thread seems to be about. ^_^
                We all use articles from sources that support our side of the arguement. If we are trying to debate that topic. And yes, my sarcasm was intended to garner a reponse from someone who thought that this nonsense about cold medicine purchases was ok. There is no such thing as an article that is not biased in at least some small way. So thinking you have somehow taken control of the high ground just because you found an article that is "unedited" and "more complete" as you put it, is pointless. If we all just tried to find the most mainstream, unbiased, news stories that seem to take no position at all on the issue, what would be the point of having the Sandbox at all?
                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                The problem with "OMG! Government BAD!" sites aren't their premise (limited government) its that they tend to coach issues and topics towards the lowest denominators. They expect people to be idiots and so portray the world as full of idiots where idiotic actions with consequences are somehow right on your doorstep. Some even go further and try to be sensationalist and nit pick at topics till it looks like "THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!!!" and leave blinders on in regards to the deeper meaning behind it.
                So you have managed to lump together an entire section of the population thats liberty minded and essentially call them all idiots. Not exactly winning the hearts and minds.
                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                I'm meandering a bit but its all related to the 'personal' nature of these topics. Since I'd like to think I'm not an idiot and I like to empathize with some of these situations that could reportedly happen to me I tend to be skeptical of those opinions. Mostly because upon reflection I realize that it can't really happen to me because I could never imagine myself acting that stupid in the first place. When people say that it could happen to them I'll politely smile and not refute them because they are saying they would willingly do something stupid and are afraid of the consequences. A paradox in itself because if they are afraid of the consequences then they would never willingly do the action that would garner it. So therefore they are unafraid of the consequences and are acting in a manner that would cause them thereby making their statement a lie and their actions purposeful, or they are stupid beyond my ability to comprehend because they cannot make a logical cause and effect deduction.
                And by the way, a 1000 word essay loaded with endless psychobabble making refrences to light sockets and the apparent stupidity of most Americans, at the same time trying to bolster your own intellect, does nothing to further your arguement.
                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                You say that the law is invalid and should be repealed because innocent people are being arrested for suspicion of meth production. There were 17 prosecuted cases in that area and 1 sensationalist case brought to light. What of the other 16? If all 17 cases fell apart then there would be a far greater outcry. I'd suspect the local paper would've printed a retraction if multiple people were picked up by mistake and proven innocent, but I've heard no word of such a publication. Of course that doesn't say much because I've also heard nothing about the local news printing a response to the 1 faulty case that is waved around so much. So there is 1 'innocent' person and 16 possibles. Of course, she isn't really innocent since she broke the law and her defense is ignorance. If you buy an illegal amount of PSE from places where there are signs clearly posted warning you against buying such amounts then you are as guilty as going 100 MPH after passing a speed limit sign saying 65.
                Yes, the local statistics seem to favor your arguement that this is an isolated incident. But how many other states, and local jurisdictions have similar laws in place? I'm sure the numbers on a national level are far greater. And your speeding analogy is apples and oranges to say the least.
                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                There is nothing dignified in going to jail, but there are even less dignified methods to go about doing so. The police did not break down her door and search/seize the residence on suspicion of cooking meth. The police did not handcuff her and drag her out the door in her nighties to be thrown into the back of a police car and unceremoniously dragged off to be charged. They allowed her what dignity they could while being arrested and what little dignity awarded is dignity you still have.
                Well I guess we should just be thankful they didn't do a No-Knock warrant with the local SWAT team. Many people are not awarded any dignity by the police. The fact that she recieved some dignity at all is definitely a plus for the police handling of the case. As for the crime, or so called crime I should say, it is just so petty in nature.
                Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                I'm not going to even touch your argument against the media because it is self defeating for your own position. If the media cannot be trusted and is only a mouth piece for propaganda then the article (a piece of media) you base this whole situation around is faulty and all subsequent arguments would also be faulty and baseless propaganda.
                Thats a great combacker I must say. But that still doesn't prove me wrong. Although a very witty and well written arguement on your part. I imagine if I had said "some media" or "mainstream media" that would have been more correct and not open to refute.
                |TG-X| mp40x



                Register for the Forums! | Get on Teamspeak! | Play Squad! | Join Discord! | Support Tactical Gamer!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                  Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                  Goverment is bad in many cases. Especially in the United States.
                  Ok. I have no problem slinging mud at the man. I feel it is my right and duty to mock my government and point out it's weaknesses.

                  But that part in bold is just crazy talk. The U.S. is one of, if not the most, free nation in the world with a stable government. (Granted we are a bit weirded out by drugs and sex. But that is slowly changing.)

                  Now with regard to this story. I would be arrested right now. Ragweed kills me and I take zyrtec-d and a couple other psuedoephdrin based drugs and easily go through 3.9 grams a week, let alone 2. In Oklahoma they want to make it required to have a doctors prescription.

                  I am fine with that.

                  But when are they going to realize that as long as there is demand it will be met? Arrest all the grandma's you want.
                  I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                  - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                  - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                  - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                  - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                  - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                  - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                    Hip Hip Hurray for the war on drugs!

                    But that part in bold is just crazy talk. The U.S. is one of, if not the most, free nation in the world with a stable government. (Granted we are a bit weirded out by drugs and sex. But that is slowly changing.)
                    We are not the the 'most free' nation on earth. We have our strengths like individual gun rights, freedom of religion, relative class freedom, and moderate-strong protection of free speech rights.

                    Occasional strains of religious conservatism in our country often have undue influence on local, state, and federal policies that infringe upon rights of the minority. We also have oppressive prohibitionist drug laws, and the highest incarceration rate in the world.

                    Freedom House has empirically (somewhat) ranked the U.S #48 under the #1 list of most free countries and we are barely in that top list.

                    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930918.html

                    We have had a stable government for some time, but the argument could be made that legitimate democratic impulses are repressed far too often to 'retain stability', rather than to make the changes that are best for the country.
                    Last edited by aeroripper; 10-04-2009, 02:01 PM.
                    Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                    Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                      Originally posted by aeroripper View Post
                      Freedom House has empirically (somewhat) ranked the U.S #48 under the #1 list of most free countries and we are barely in that top list.

                      http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930918.html
                      We're only listed at 48th because the list is alphabetical. It doesn't appear there is any hierarchy at which #1 is more #1 than the rest. Your point isn't entirely missed though.

                      As someone who has known several "cooks" in my lifetime, I can say these laws do nothing to prevent the terrifying rate at which meth spreads through our society. Most "cooks" sought other sources for obtaining ingredients as soon as these laws appeared on the books. I can't really see much justification in these laws at all. It's about as justified as the reasoning that gun laws prevent violent crime...
                      | | |

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                        Originally posted by Atomic Dog View Post
                        We're only listed at 48th because the list is alphabetical. It doesn't appear there is any hierarchy at which #1 is more #1 than the rest. Your point isn't entirely missed though.
                        I really should have looked at that chart closer :X.
                        Like the server? Become a regular! TGNS Required Reading
                        Answers to every server question? Yes! TGNS FAQ

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                          Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                          We all use articles from sources that support our side of the arguement. If we are trying to debate that topic. And yes, my sarcasm was intended to garner a reponse from someone who thought that this nonsense about cold medicine purchases was ok. There is no such thing as an article that is not biased in at least some small way. So thinking you have somehow taken control of the high ground just because you found an article that is "unedited" and "more complete" as you put it, is pointless. If we all just tried to find the most mainstream, unbiased, news stories that seem to take no position at all on the issue, what would be the point of having the Sandbox at all?
                          There isn't really a high ground or a low ground, there's just less information and more information. The more information you have the less you are likely to get misguided by lack of information. Everything has a spin, the trick is the find enough information from reputable sources on both sides or to be able to at least a good deal of what you are trying to judge.

                          Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                          So you have managed to lump together an entire section of the population thats liberty minded and essentially call them all idiots. Not exactly winning the hearts and minds.
                          There's a difference between 'liberty minded' and 'over reacting'. If something happens to someone doing something stupid because they were doing something stupid then by not doing something stupid you avoid having it happen to you. Calling your boss a whore will get you fired or punished severely. If you want to argue that freedom of speech is dead because you can't call your boss a whore without getting fired then you aren't liberty minded, you're over reacting. Yes that was another analogy and has nothing to do with the article, but you keep breaking things up so it's the best I can do without repeating myself.

                          Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                          And by the way, a 1000 word essay loaded with endless psychobabble making refrences to light sockets and the apparent stupidity of most Americans, at the same time trying to bolster your own intellect, does nothing to further your arguement.
                          Yes, the local statistics seem to favor your arguement that this is an isolated incident. But how many other states, and local jurisdictions have similar laws in place? I'm sure the numbers on a national level are far greater. And your speeding analogy is apples and oranges to say the least.
                          You're right, I probably could have shortened it down. Guess I just wanted to elaborate on your stance and point out where my position fit in all that. Its also related to the part you lopped before this. Guesses are not facts though, they are generally filtered through a personal bias on how you perceive things will turn out. Of course, since there are hardly any published complaints we can't really get number easily. I sure as hell don't work for the department of justice with access to case files and records.

                          The speeding analogy matches up quite nicely I'd like to think. Both are laws that put a limit on something. Both are limits placed on activities on the probability that it will lead to public disorder (PSE -> Meth, Speeding -> Accidents). Both have arguments against them because they are based on probability (odds someone isn't using PSE to cook meth and odds of speeding over the limit safely without incident). Think outside the box. ;)

                          Originally posted by mp40x
                          I always take an adamant stance against authority because authority, or goverment, only serves itself and its own intersts. And, hardly ever seems to protect the rights of the common citizen as it should.
                          Here's what that long spiel on empathy and sensationalism was in reference to. This is more or less a perspective issue where you see things from a singular point of view where your self interests are paramount. The way around that is to see things from different points of view, but I already covered that. Simply put as long as government serves you then you believe it serves all. If government serves someone other than you then it doesn't serve enough or serves too much. If government serves against you then its too intrusive. The catch is government serves you from the background much more than from direct intervention or prevention. If everything runs smoothly you never notice government in action as you live your life. It is by its intrusion into our lives that we judge government and therefore believe it intrusive.

                          Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                          Well I guess we should just be thankful they didn't do a No-Knock warrant with the local SWAT team. Many people are not awarded any dignity by the police. The fact that she recieved some dignity at all is definitely a plus for the police handling of the case. As for the crime, or so called crime I should say, it is just so petty in nature.
                          We don't have to be anything to the incident. The police acted in a manner befitting the circumstances. Arguments that it should have been handled better are baseless without specifics of how and why such actions could have been taken. Considering a crime petty after the full details are known is hindsight at its best and using the worst case scenario in regards to the subject. Would the crime have been 'petty' if the grandmother was unknowingly supplying her 'sick' grandson with PSE to cook meth? Then again, if that was the case there wouldn't have been much of a story to it as it happens all too often.

                          Originally posted by mp40x View Post
                          Thats a great combacker I must say. But that still doesn't prove me wrong. Although a very witty and well written arguement on your part. I imagine if I had said "some media" or "mainstream media" that would have been more correct and not open to refute.
                          Information does not need to be confrontational in nature to be valid. If I propose another set of views and values that doesn't make your views and values incorrect. Both views are valid since both are true as a matter of perspective even if they are in direct opposite of each other. It does provide more information and is more informative if both sides sit at the table.

                          I disagree with you, but I did not set out to prove you wrong. Its all a matter of perspective and how you look at the situation that can sway you one way or another. Of course, some points I do disagree strongly on and so counter your arguments with my own. Rarely, if ever, do conversations like this end up with a 'victor' and most end with people agreeing to disagree. Doesn't make them any less fun or informative though.

                          Originally posted by El Gringo Grande
                          Now with regard to this story. I would be arrested right now. Ragweed kills me and I take zyrtec-d and a couple other psuedoephdrin based drugs and easily go through 3.9 grams a week, let alone 2. In Oklahoma they want to make it required to have a doctors prescription.
                          You know the recommended (non-prescription) dose of PSE is 120 mg per 12 hours. That's 1.68g or 1680mg a week. That means every 12 days and 6 hours you would use the 3000mg of PSE. Rx medicine is a completely different kettle of fish though. Might want to look at what you're taking again to make sure you're not double dosing.
                          My sanity is not in question...
                          It was a confirmed casualty some time ago.


                          Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                            Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                            You know the recommended (non-prescription) dose of PSE is 120 mg per 12 hours. That's 1.68g or 1680mg a week. That means every 12 days and 6 hours you would use the 3000mg of PSE. Rx medicine is a completely different kettle of fish though. Might want to look at what you're taking again to make sure you're not double dosing.
                            You are correct. I take more than the recommended OTC dosage but it is what the doctor told me. I like my doctor. He will "prescribe" me the over the counter equivalent dosages so I don't have to mess with getting the prescription filled. And since my co-pay for drugs went up the price is about the same.
                            I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
                            - "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
                            - "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
                            - "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
                            - If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
                            - "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
                            - "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Hoosier Grandmother Arrested for Buying Cold Medication

                              Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                              There isn't really a high ground or a low ground, there's just less information and more information. The more information you have the less you are likely to get misguided by lack of information. Everything has a spin, the trick is the find enough information from reputable sources on both sides or to be able to at least a good deal of what you are trying to judge.
                              This in an attempt to educated the less fortunate ones who only read what they like I presume? Really? First of all, I read everything. RNC and DNC press releases and talking points. I scour the internet reading blogs, mainstream media, foriegn news from all differnet perpectives and viewpoints. Why? Because I like to see what everyone is saying. So I am well rehearsed in forming opinions from different sources. But my opinions are considered very radical to most people who vote one of the two crime families, Democrats and Republicans, into office every four years. Wich is the very defintion of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Right?
                              Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                              There's a difference between 'liberty minded' and 'over reacting'. If something happens to someone doing something stupid because they were doing something stupid then by not doing something stupid you avoid having it happen to you. Calling your boss a whore will get you fired or punished severely. If you want to argue that freedom of speech is dead because you can't call your boss a whore without getting fired then you aren't liberty minded, you're over reacting. Yes that was another analogy and has nothing to do with the article, but you keep breaking things up so it's the best I can do without repeating myself.
                              Ok lets talk about "over reacting" as you put it. I will use a real life example of "over reacting", this time the police are the guilty party. Please read the story below.
                              Police Raid Berwyn Heights Mayor's Home, Kill His 2 Dogs
                              By Aaron C. Davis
                              Washington Post Staff Writer
                              Thursday, July 31, 2008

                              A police SWAT team raided the home of the mayor in the Prince George's County town of Berwyn Heights on Tuesday, shooting and killing his two dogs, after he brought in a 32-pound package of marijuana that had been delivered to his doorstep, police said.

                              Mayor Cheye Calvo was not arrested in the raid, which was carried out about 7 p.m. by the Sheriff's Office SWAT team and county police narcotics officers. Prince George's police spokesman Henry Tippett said yesterday that all the residents of the house -- Calvo, his wife and his mother-in-law -- are "persons of interest" in the case.

                              The package was addressed to Calvo's wife, Trinity Tomsic, said law enforcement officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the case is ongoing.

                              Tippett said police are working to determine for whom the drugs were meant.

                              Calvo said yesterday that he did not know how the drugs wound up on his doorstep. He works part time as the mayor and serves as director of expansion for the SEED Foundation, a well-known national nonprofit group that runs urban public boarding schools.

                              "My government blew through my doors and killed my dogs," Calvo said. "They thought we were drug dealers, and we were treated as such. I don't think they really ever considered that we weren't."

                              Calvo described a chaotic scene, in which he -- wearing only underwear and socks -- and his mother-in-law were handcuffed and interrogated for hours. They were surrounded by the dogs' carcasses and pools of the dogs' blood, Calvo said.

                              Spokesmen for the Sheriff's Office and Prince George's police expressed regret yesterday that the mayor's dogs were killed. But they defended the way the raid was carried out, saying it was proper for a case involving such a large amount of drugs.

                              Sgt. Mario Ellis, a Sheriff's Office spokesman, said the deputies who entered Calvo's home "apparently felt threatened" by the dogs.

                              "We're not in the habit of going to homes and shooting peoples' dogs," Ellis said. "If we were, there would be a lot more dead dogs around the county."

                              Calvo, 37, has been mayor of the 3,000-person town near College Park since 2004. His wife is a finance officer for the state, he said.

                              The investigation that led police to their house in the 8500 block of Edmonston Road began in Arizona, officials said. There, a police dog at a shipping facility identified the package as being filled with marijuana. Prince George's officers posed as deliverymen and brought it to Calvo's home.
                              Now if we can't agree that this story is an example of the drug war run amok then you are right, we need to agree to disagree.
                              Originally posted by Tarenth View Post
                              Would the crime have been 'petty' if the grandmother was unknowingly supplying her 'sick' grandson with PSE to cook meth?
                              Yes, because its a form of prohibition. History has taught us that prohibition simply does not work. Was the prohibition of alcohol considered a resounding success? I don't think anyone could argue that point. I think in the future that the war on drugs will be looked back on as a disastrous failure. And, one of the most egregious violations of civil liberties in the history of the United States.
                              |TG-X| mp40x



                              Register for the Forums! | Get on Teamspeak! | Play Squad! | Join Discord! | Support Tactical Gamer!

                              Comment

                              Connect

                              Collapse

                              TeamSpeak 3 Server

                              Collapse

                              Advertisement

                              Collapse

                              Twitter Feed

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X