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  • Guns cause you to get shot

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0930121512.htm

    In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun.
    The press release from the university:

    http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_...ession-safety/

    The study can be purchased online here:

    http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/11/2034
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

  • #2
    Re: Guns cause you to get shot

    The previous debate on this issue:

    http://www.tacticalgamer.com/sandbox...less-safe.html
    Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

    snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

    Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

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    • #3
      Re: Guns cause you to get shot

      *scratches head*

      Wish I could purchase the study to see what sort of crimes these were. Armed robbery? What's the object lesson of the study? Be meek and compliant when threatened? Be a puss and don't defend yourself? In the incidents where the gun owner was injured, how did the criminal fare? I can think of one incident from another forum where one of the forum users drew down on a criminal robbing a fast food chain. Took a few rounds, but killed the bad guy.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Guns cause you to get shot

        Originally posted by Gill View Post
        Be meek and compliant when threatened? Be a puss and don't defend yourself? In the incidents where the gun owner was injured, how did the criminal fare? I can think of one incident from another forum where one of the forum users drew down on a criminal robbing a fast food chain. Took a few rounds, but killed the bad guy.
        How much did he save in the robbery, and how much did the medical attention he required cost? That's ignoring the fact that, somewhere, someone is missing their son, brother, father, or whatever.

        You're the one attaching value judgments to not defending yourself. Shooting someone so you don't look like a "puss" is...pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not everyone who isn't a manly man of manliness is doing it because they're a "puss".
        I can ADS using more than a 2x without significant stutter! This was a good patch.

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        • #5
          Re: Guns cause you to get shot

          You come at me with a gun while I am practicing my rights to carry a concealed weapon, (100 percent of the time I am not on Fed property or a By-Law gun-free Zone) You will get a pair of 45. ACP in your chest. Studies be damned.
          The American Resistance Movement: Defending the nation from tyranny since 1776.

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          • #6
            Re: Guns cause you to get shot

            Originally posted by Gill View Post
            What's the object lesson of the study? Be meek and compliant when threatened? Be a puss and don't defend yourself?... I can think of one incident from another forum where one of the forum users drew down on a criminal robbing a fast food chain. Took a few rounds, but killed the bad guy.
            Over the top rhetorical questions often makes one look silly, since there are clear answers to those questions and they aren't the answers that the question is supposed to persuade people of. For example, when a clearly stupid person asks, rhetorically, "Do you think I'm stupid, or what?" They clearly don't expect an answer and they intend to persuade their listener that they aren't stupid. Of course, the answer is clear: "Yes, I do think you're stupid." It's not only not an effective method of persuasion, it gives one's debate opponents opportunities to make one look really bad.

            I haven't read the study, but the press release states pretty clearly: "The research team concluded that, although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year, the chances of success are low." Scratch quotes, in his post, an even more specific thesis.

            I'm sure that pointing at particular cases of successful defensive gun uses is not incompatible with that finding.

            No where does it mention that the research team concludes that one should be meek and compliant when threatened, or not ever defend yourself.

            However, I do know that many gun rights advocates - the ones who seem most reasonable to me - advocate generally complying when an armed robber threatens you for your wallet. After all, losing $20 and having to cancel your credit cards is much easier than having to deal with whatever legal process you're certain to have to deal with after you've shot someone - in self-defense or not. This is also not incompatible with defending yourself when the time comes to do so. It is also no sign that one is meek. Do you believe that whenever our soldiers have surrendered in battle when they had the means to fight back that they are being meek? (This is an example of a good rhetorical question.) The answer is no. Sometimes surrendering or complying under duress is the smart thing to do, even for the strong, defiant, and courageous.

            Also from the press release, "People should rethink their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures, write the authors. Suggestions to the contrary, especially for urban residents who may see gun possession as a defense against a dangerous environment should be discussed and thoughtfully reconsidered."

            Sounds reasonable to me. I am pro-gun rights, in case you care. And I own a number of firearms. I am, however, both angered and saddened that many firearm owners do and say stupid things that seriously hurt the pro-gun rights side of the debate.
            Last edited by sordavie; 10-27-2009, 08:48 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Guns cause you to get shot

              This story is closely related to the fact everybody laughs at the "I hate stupid people" jokes.

              Most people do not know how to handle firearms. Even those that do are often not in the state of mind or have the required situational awareness to handle them correctly.
              Iím not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
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              • #8
                Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                Originally posted by sordavie View Post
                Over the top rhetorical questions often makes one look silly, since there are clear answers to those questions and they aren't the answers that the question is supposed to persuade people of. For example, when a clearly stupid person asks, rhetorically, "Do you think I'm stupid, or what?" They clearly don't expect an answer and they intend to persuade their listener that they aren't stupid. Of course, the answer is clear: "Yes, I do think you're stupid." It's not only not an effective method of persuasion, it gives one's debate opponents opportunities to make one look really bad.

                I haven't read the study, but the press release states pretty clearly: "The research team concluded that, although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year, the chances of success are low." Scratch quotes, in his post, an even more specific thesis.

                I'm sure that pointing at particular cases of successful defensive gun uses is not incompatible with that finding.

                No where does it mention that the research team concludes that one should be meek and compliant when threatened, or not ever defend yourself.

                However, I do know that many gun rights advocates - the ones who seem most reasonable to me - advocate generally complying when an armed robber threatens you for your wallet. After all, losing $20 and having to cancel your credit cards is much easier than having to deal with whatever legal process you're certain to have to deal with after you've shot someone - in self-defense or not. This is also not incompatible with defending yourself when the time comes to do so. It is also no sign that one is meek. Do you believe that whenever our soldiers have surrendered in battle when they had the means to fight back that they are being meek? (This is an example of a good rhetorical question.) The answer is no. Sometimes surrendering or complying under duress is the smart thing to do, even for the strong, defiant, and courageous.

                Also from the press release, "People should rethink their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures, write the authors. Suggestions to the contrary, especially for urban residents who may see gun possession as a defense against a dangerous environment should be discussed and thoughtfully reconsidered."

                Sounds reasonable to me. I am pro-gun rights, in case you care. And I own a number of firearms. I am, however, both angered and saddened that many firearm owners do and say stupid things that seriously hurt the pro-gun rights side of the debate.
                That's the main reason I'm interested in seeing the study firsthand, hopefully it includes the nature of the crimes which were screened. I don't know what the crime statistics for Philadelphia are, although we can reasonably assume that most of them were, indeed, armed "stick ups".

                But, again... so what's the point? As you quoted: ""The research team concluded that, although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year, the chances of success are low." So don't try in the first place? I think the main aim of the study is the first part of the latter quote you supplied from the press release: "People should rethink their possession of guns". They've found that you're statistically more likely to be injured if confronting a criminal with a firearm, thus you should consider not owning a firearm at all.

                Someone purchase the study and share it here. :P

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                  Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                  How much did he save in the robbery, and how much did the medical attention he required cost? That's ignoring the fact that, somewhere, someone is missing their son, brother, father, or whatever.

                  You're the one attaching value judgments to not defending yourself. Shooting someone so you don't look like a "puss" is...pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not everyone who isn't a manly man of manliness is doing it because they're a "puss".
                  He wasn't in immediate danger of losing anything, unless the robber went berserk and started blasting away everyone in the BK.

                  Here, I found the link: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a.../466103591/p/1

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                    Originally posted by Razcsak View Post
                    You're the one attaching value judgments to not defending yourself. Shooting someone so you don't look like a "puss" is...pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not everyone who isn't a manly man of manliness is doing it because they're a "puss".
                    Originally posted by sordavie View Post
                    However, I do know that many gun rights advocates - the ones who seem most reasonable to me - advocate generally complying when an armed robber threatens you for your wallet. After all, losing $20 and having to cancel your credit cards is much easier than having to deal with whatever legal process you're certain to have to deal with after you've shot someone - in self-defense or not. This is also not incompatible with defending yourself when the time comes to do so. It is also no sign that one is meek. Do you believe that whenever our soldiers have surrendered in battle when they had the means to fight back that they are being meek? (This is an example of a good rhetorical question.) The answer is no. Sometimes surrendering or complying under duress is the smart thing to do, even for the strong, defiant, and courageous.
                    While I certainly think that bravado is a dumb reason to pull a gun on someone, let me throw something out that we've all heard before: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph in this world, is for good men to do nothing." (commonly misattributed to Edmund Burke, but origin not known...)

                    Is pulling a gun to defend your wallet a good idea? It certainly increases the chance for violence, compared to meekly handing it over. It may or may not be legal for you to threaten deadly force in defense of property. You can almost certainly articulate any fear for your safety, though...

                    My point isn't that the poll is right or wrong, or that anyone in any particular situation is right or wrong. My point is that it's a personal decision. It's a difficult decision. And it's not hard to make the wrong decision if you haven't prepared for the situation.

                    I was just talking to a coworker about something like this. He (a federal agent) was in Washington DC and got in line behind a group of guys at a Subway. 8 or 9 of them ordered and got their sandwich to go and it looked like the last guy was going to pay for them all. One by one they all left and then the last guy said, "nevermind" and turned around and walked out. Right past my coworker. The store manager/owner/whatever was livid, jumped over the counter, ranting and raving and started to follow these guys outside when my coworker stopped him and asked him if those sandwiches were worth being shot. The Subway guy stopped and walked back around to make my coworker's sandwich. I tell you this because there's simply no single good answer to this situation. These guys were all dressed in a particular color, wearing athletic attire common amongst gang bangers. It's very probable that one or more of them were armed. It's also probable that since it worked flawlessly, that these guys will try to get free sandwiches again using the same technique. Who's going to stop them? They'll be long gone before the police respond to such a call. They wouldn't try it in front of a uniformed cop. An off duty cop would be very brave or very stupid to try to stop multiple armed individuals by himself. A store owner might try, but is likely to be ineffective. C'est la vie...
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                    • #11
                      Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                      Is it legal for cops to threaten deadly force in defense of property?
                      Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?

                      snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

                      Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                        Cing, that seems consistent with what I said: sometimes the smart thing to do is to let it go or comply under duress. That is consistent with it sometimes being the smart thing to do to defend one's self or one's property. That's also consistent with such decisions as being very difficult to make on a personal level, as well as being consistent with it being very difficult to evaluate the right decision. What you should do depends on the particular circumstances.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                          Originally posted by ScratchMonkey View Post
                          Is it legal for cops to threaten deadly force in defense of property?
                          I'm fairly certain local laws/procedures regulate cop behavior but I don't believe any police force in the US allows lethal force without a physical threat to a person (police or otherwise). As far as threatening the use of force I would guess that would be allowed since police can lie to criminals and suspects :)
                          |TG-6th|Snooggums

                          Just because everyone does something does not mean that it is right to do.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                            Originally posted by Gill View Post
                            That's the main reason I'm interested in seeing the study firsthand, hopefully it includes the nature of the crimes which were screened. I don't know what the crime statistics for Philadelphia are, although we can reasonably assume that most of them were, indeed, armed "stick ups".

                            But, again... so what's the point? As you quoted: ""The research team concluded that, although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year, the chances of success are low." So don't try in the first place? I think the main aim of the study is the first part of the latter quote you supplied from the press release: "People should rethink their possession of guns". They've found that you're statistically more likely to be injured if confronting a criminal with a firearm, thus you should consider not owning a firearm at all.

                            Someone purchase the study and share it here. :P
                            "Rethink their possession of guns" is not synonymous nor implies "consider not owning a firearm at all."

                            I don't understand what you mean by the question "what's the point?" It's a scientific study. The point is to understand how a certain phenomenon in the world works. That's so with all scientific studies. Perhaps you're conflating the point of the scientific study with some point that some political lobbyists might take up, using this study as a piece of evidence? That would be a separate point, unrelated to the science. I don't know what that point would be. Presumably, that would be a point made by the political lobbyists and not the scientists who undertook the study.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Guns cause you to get shot

                              Originally posted by sordavie View Post
                              Cing, that seems consistent with what I said: sometimes the smart thing to do is to let it go or comply under duress. That is consistent with it sometimes being the smart thing to do to defend one's self or one's property. That's also consistent with such decisions as being very difficult to make on a personal level, as well as being consistent with it being very difficult to evaluate the right decision. What you should do depends on the particular circumstances.

                              This is one of the things that is harped on in Concealed Carry Class. Example: If a guy is stealing your car in the middle of the night and you wake up to his entry attempts, it is better to open a window and yell "STOP!" Than to gun him down. You will be found guilty. This is why vehicles have VIN numbers, License Plates, and insurance. If you are keeping critical materials in your vehicle..you are just not smart.
                              The American Resistance Movement: Defending the nation from tyranny since 1776.

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